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Plumbata
#31
Hi Robert!<br>
<br>
Your very welcome! Hey your not harsh - The last time I delt with harsh was when I was tooling around the Artic : ) On no need to apologize but rather let me thank you for steering Linda my way. It is a pleasure knowing Linda via the net - I have the utmost respect for Linda's dedication to the history of the Euro Sarmatians and the story of Lucius Artorius Castus, the Roman Arthur. Linda and I had about 2 months of a non stop e info. exchange. The main subject with that info. exchange was my marble logo piece that is featured in my collection. Linda and I were trying to find out where exactly the piece originated from - Frustrating but we did not find that information - What we do know is that the Dealer who sold me the piece told me that it originated in Campania and was purchased in the 1920's or 1930's. Linda was hoping that more precise information would lead to the location of the Artori family villa - If Linda could find that villa then it is possible that the legend of Arthur could become history.<br>
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Oh I hear you on the Wild West with ancient artifacts but then that's the way it's always been and I am sure that's the way it's always going to be. Not counting the greedy fat cat types there are some impoverished people that are feeding their families with their digs - I believe that their quest is just as noble as we who are trying to discover our history. On my speculating I think that even with the best the defining of history comes with some degree of speculation. As much as I could find out from the Dealer in England the Roman Sarmatian Scale Armor Piece was found by an older gentleman who putts around with a metal detector. The find was not recent but had been dug years ago. Here is some more information on this topic that you may find of interest:<br>
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The Roman Cavalry Piece that I bought from the English Dealer had been found at the same location as the scale armor piece. That piece is a Roman Bronze Cavalry Horse's Head Brow Boss approx. 2nd or 3rd Century. It appears that beneath the patina there is light silvering. The piece is complete and is in excellent condition. Here is the kicker - The Brow Boss has open work and is the typical circular style horse's brow boss with a 4 pointed Dacian Star cut out - I have seen quite a few circular horse's brow bosses that were from the Balkans. As much as I can tell the Dacian Star implies the IV Flavia or possibly the II Adiutrix - The II Adiutrix in that the other artifacts found with the brow boss have the style of anchor motifs typical to that legion. Now according to my many hundreds of artifacts from the Balkans the IV Flavia and the II Adiutrix of the 2nd to 3rd centuries were serving (perhaps even combined) in the region of the lower Danube (Moesia, ect). Many of my artifacts show that these two legions or their auxiliaries were conducting themselves as fleet legionaries or more precisely as riverine marines and also had a host of cavalry. According to the artifacts the four most common tribal identities that were in these legion's ranks or their auxiliarie's ranks at that time were Dacians, Sarmatians, Thracians, and Germans. The Dacian and Sarmatian cultural influence with the artifacts seems to be the most dominant. The horse's brow boss appears to be of local Roman British manufacture in that it is slightly cruder then those found in the Balkans and quite a bit more delicate - I am assuming that the reason for this is that metal was more scarce in Roman Britain Vs Moesia. As you know the IV Flavia and the II Aduitrix were no where near Hadrian's Wall - Vex. Cav. Detachments?<br>
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I agree with the possibilities of all the scenarios that you presented on the scale armor piece. Presently I am comfortable with my Roman Sarmatian classification of the scale armor piece. As with all artifacts I heartily agree that there is always the potential for new information to develop - In the meantime I base my conclusion on the information that is currently available.<br>
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Thank you for the compliment on my plumbata. Yup they are all original and according to the post from the gentleman who was in Slovenia they are not all that rare anymore! Robert don't let the fakes bother you - The majority of fakes are coins - Most of the rest are terra-cotta lamps ect. - The stuff that your novice will buy and if discovered will feel to embarrassed to complain. Now there are some big dollar marble pieces that you have to be wary of but then any professional Antiquities Dealer can spot them pronto. A lot of the legionary small stuff coming from the Balkans does not fetch such high prices - I am sure that the fake artists would go broke trying to make the originals that sometimes sell for as little as $20 - By the way some of those small pieces are loaded with legionary information. Back to those plumbata - Yes I am pretty sure that there is something mixed in with the clay. Due to the color of the clay I am not sure on the oxidized lead but then it could be. Nope no other plumbata around here : ) You got it - I will take my plumbata out of storage over the next few days and weigh them and post the results - Right now l'm in South Beach, it's Labor Day Weekend, and I do have an ATM Card - Oh and I'm not afraid to use it either : ) Hey Have a Great Weekend and Looking Forward!<br>
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All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#32
Hi David,<br>
The fragmenting option was something I had thought about as well. But let's face it, these weapons received teir name (plumbata) from a lead weight, not from a clay one. Nor is such a material ever descibed by sources, nor the fragmenting option.<br>
All in all, that leaves the case for clay as a normal manner to give weight to these missiles less acceptable.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 8/30/03 3:23 pm<br></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#33
Gilded scale armour was not the privilege of the Sarmatians and this piece, I think, can only be described as "fragment of scale armour found in the area of Hadrian's wall, Imperial Roman period". And that's about it..<br>
That is of course if it was actually dug up from there.<br>
Trying to attribute one particular type of decoration like a four pointed "dacian" star to one particular unit and from there, trying to deduce the ethnicity of that unit --if there ever was one-- seems to me a very risky proposition.<br>
Decorative patterns were pretty standard, save some regional variations and were used all over the empire by whoever happened to fancy them.<br>
Laboratory methods, not speculation, can determine the authenticity of an archaeological piece. <p></p><i></i>
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#34
Hi David,<br>
Missed your post by just a few minutes..<br>
I hear you on fakes and the Wall pieces. I'll leave it at that with both of these items; Antoninus, should we start another thread on this item? It looks very promising and I wouldn't be responsible for mixing up subjects and threads.<br>
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So, back to plumbatae on this one. OK, if not faked, I am getting very interested in what this material could actually be. Where are the plumbatae found in Britain? Bishop & Coulston mention finds from Wroxeter (several), Kenchester, Catterick, Brough (Burgh?) Castle, Richborough, Doncaster and Carnarfon.<br>
I have not a clue at which museums these have ended up eventually, can anyone help there? Sander, maybe? You have acess to the bibliography, so it seems.<br>
Establishing a kind of average weight for the head plus weight could do a bit more to establish what Dave's items should weigh.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#35
"Many of my artifacts show that these two legions or their auxiliaries were conducting themselves as fleet legionaries or more precisely as riverine marines "<br>
<br>
Oh?<br>
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Please start a new thread about this Dave, I'd love to know about that. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#36
Greetings Dave,<br>
From my own experience, lead oxydizes giving a whitish (but sometimes brown if lead oxyde interacts with iron oxyde) powder-like patina. The first time I came along an ancient lead object I thought that it was clay or the like too !<br>
In my opinion, if your plumbatae weights are heavy they must be leaden.<br>
One question, are weights on your plumbatae broader or narrower thant he barbbs in the points are?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#37
Hi Robert!<br>
<br>
I agree with the classification but what I have right in front of me looks and feels like very hard clay and iron. More info. on this plumbata is that the body of the piece appears to be made of two layers of clay, the inner layer being a much thinner layer and a bit lighter in color. There could possibly be something mixed in with the clay but it would have to be a very small portion of? Now that description was of the smaller of the two plumbata which weighs approx. 100 grams. The larger of the plumbata's body has something more to it then just clay. First of all it feels that it has more weight, that is even for it's larger size. This larger plumbata also has two layers of material for the body. With close examination the outer layer is a much darker khaki color and in some areas it appears to be even more brown in color - It feels like it could be some kind of soft metal mixed with? As mentioned earlier oxidized lead or lead mixed with? This outer layer shows that on the rim of the socket it is reddish in color. The thin inner layer is smooth and light khaki in color - Looks like clay. The weight of this larger plumbata is approx. 160 grams. Any ideas on this larger plumbata - Also do you know of anyone that is in (or visits) the Miami Beach area that would like to view these two plumbata in person?<br>
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All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#38
Reply to Legatus Legionis:<br>
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To date I have no information on any Europeans other then Euro Sarmatians that were gilding their scale armor during Roman Imperial Times. It would be much appreciated it you could show me other Roman gold gilded scale armor artifacts of the Roman Imperial era?<br>
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I am absolutely 100% certain that the Roman Sarmatian Gold Gilded Scale Armor Piece was dug from near Hadrian's Wall. If I feel a need (which I don't) I could have the piece tested (for soil residue) as to give proof of ID as to the general area where found.<br>
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I have viewed literally thousands of artifacts that have the Dacian Diamond Star engraved on the artifact. Many of these pieces are legionary with some being of a later period - The Diamond Star was the national symbol of the ancient Dacians. With my own artifacts I put a great deal of time and effort in finding out where they originated. Most of the Balkans artifacts that have appeared in recent years are from areas where the II Adiutrix, the IV Flavia, the V Mac, and the XI Claudia were stationed or were thought to be operational at various times.<br>
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Lab testing adds very little once an artifact is dug and on the market. To carbon 14 test an artifact has to have once been living - Such as; wood remains, bone remains, ect - Most artifacts that are available do not fit this category.<br>
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<p></p><i></i>
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#39
Hi Jasper!<br>
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Thanks for the interest - Roger that and will do in a few days.<br>
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All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#40
Greetings Aitor!<br>
<br>
Much thanks for the information! If clay in color then that makes a lot of sense on the larger plumbata! The smaller one I'm not so sure as I don't think that it is heavy enough to be lead and it sure looks and feels like hard clay. On the width of the body of the projectiles and their arrow tips - They appear to be approx. the same.<br>
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<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#41
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Hi Robert!<br>
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LOL OK - By that time I was scooting to get frisky with the 24/7 Natives here : )<br>
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If you guys want to start another thread on the subject of fakes I will try to give as much info as I have from dealing in the antiquities market. By the way soon I will be selling off most of my stock and focusing on collecting and my jewarly/swim wear designs - No More Antiquities Dealing - Oh Boy!!! Have been having a ball with the arts and design stuff and am a'ready teddy to kick it with the fash in Dec!<br>
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Acknowledged on keeping threads separate - My apologies and in the future I will do just that!<br>
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The larger plumbata I bought from a dealer who buys his Roman legionary from Germany and the Balkans - This one I am 90% sure originated from the Balkans. The smaller one is from a dealer who only buys from the Balkans and is definitely from the Balkans.<br>
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<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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#42
Hi folks,<br>
<br>
the pix remind my very much of the Wroxeter pieces. Anyway, to get certainty about the material used for the weights, what about x-raying?<br>
<br>
Just my 2 pence.<br>
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Cheers,<br>
<br>
Helge <p></p><i></i>
If you run away from an archer...
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#43
Hi Helge!<br>
<br>
X raying the plumbatas makes good sense! That would definitely decide if there is a lead content - Now where to wrangle an x ray machine.<br>
<br>
All My Best!<br>
<br>
Dave <p></p><i></i>
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#44
Thanks for the information, Dave.<br>
I think that the leaden weights were made intentionally as wide or evan wider than the point barbs in order to stick the plumbatae in individual pockets and to avoidthe barbs tangling with the borders (only one more theory!)<br>
X-Ray? I am not sure but, wouldn't be baked clay as opaque as lead is on the radiography?<br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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#45
Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am not sure but, wouldn't be baked clay as opaque as lead is on the radiography?<hr>I doubt it.<br>
After all radiographic personal are not considered adequately protected by brick walls, are they? <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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