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specifics in Spear fighting combat
I didn't know where exactly to post this video. I didn't want to go to the roman section,rather discuss how this group forms open and close order,and how easy it would be for hoplites to do similar things. Also the space between men and ranks. And the fact that light infanty can retreat through the files.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=L41MJLXJAYI
I think it's an axcellent performance!
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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That's good drill. The fact that they can carry it out under pressure speaks highly for their group.

very impressive.

Personally, I would never want my light infantry to retreat through my files--I'd want them to come on and go off to the flanks, rather like the thin line of Triarii do early in the film.

I plan to bring some peltasts to Marathon Big Grin D D so we can practice there.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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It seems this is what the greeks did,too,as we usually hear of peltasts being deployed in the flanks. And neither the Romans must have wanted their troops to retreat through their ranks when pursued...Hanibal risked the lives his own defeated first line in Zhama,in order not to disorder his second and third line...But they must have been able to perform this opening and closing maneuver in whatever way for when it was needed.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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I have a suspicion that only selected sections in the line opened, vice every other file. That's how I'd do it--create one file opening per forty or so, and let the psiloi/Velites file through. That way, even if pursued, most of your line is solid as a rock.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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Nice clips, Giannis......and it shows what you can do IF you can get enough re-enactors together......these guys drill is somewhat muddled though....they open/close order in a fashion which was neither entirely Greek ( by files) or Roman ( by ranks).

Significantly they don't show Pila throwing ( other than randomly in the 'fight').....I believe the Roman Infantry formed up in 'Open' order, but in a 'quincunx' formation,(i.e. staggered ranks) so that they had room to throw pila, and close up, halving their open order depth as they did so....(see p.112 "Warfare in the Classical World" J.Warry 1980 where I first postulated this, though my current thoughts would modify this somewhat....)
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Quote:I have a suspicion that only selected sections in the line opened, vice every other file. That's how I'd do it--create one file opening per forty or so, and let the psiloi/Velites file through. That way, even if pursued, most of your line is solid as a rock.

Or between units. The fate of units in battle is suprisingly independant, with adjacent units often showing one unit breaking and one standing. This indicates, perhaps not suprisingly, that the unit cohesion is greater than the line cohesion. The joint between units would be a natural place to form lanes for the passage of light troops.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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That a was a cool bit of video. Thanks for posting that.

I noticed that the "Triarii" seem to be holding their spears very far back along the shaft, supported along the forearm. I've seen this described in Richard Underwood's "Anglo-Saxon Weapons and Warfare", and also in I.P. Stephenson's "Roman Infantry Equipment: The Later Empire"--is this how people are recreating an underarm hold now?
Robert Sulentic

Uti possedetis.
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I've seen greek re-enactors doing the same,and it's wrong for greeks. It is clear enough that the typical fighting grip was the overhand. Hoplites must not have used this high grip in phalanx formation. Re-enactors have used it,not being ale to explain how hoplites "changed" grips from underarm to overarm.The answer is that they sismply did not change grip once they had started marching.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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I found this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjU6tSU ... re=related
I think it's a bit exagerated but many of the stances are typical in vase and sculpture. Many of those moves could happen by accident or in purpose. Some may have been tought in hoplomachia(?)
Pay attention to what they do in 0:32
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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Sorry, Giannis....but this clip is most disappointing. The "authentic" spears are way too short, and the stylised 'pantomime', all too obviously choreographed, bears no resemblance whatever to anything that might have existed....not one of those moves could be carried out in a phalanx formation ! Further, most would have got a hoplite instantly killed, even in a one-on-one duel that is being depicted.......as for moves that involve leading with the right leg, with the shield placed behind.... :roll:

Of course, we can only guess at what might have been the fighting style of Hoplites in Phalanx - but this guess on the clip must be hopelessly wrong !! :lol: :lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Paul beat me to it, but their dorys are too innacurate to really learn anything. An 8' spear would be in the ground during half of the moves and if as many believe they were held about a third from the sauroter then this would be more marked (5+ feet of spear in front of you). Also the sweeping moves of the shield away from the body would surely get you skewered by the guy next to the one you are fighting even if you could manage to do them in formation.

We have to assume the place for such gymnastics would be after one side broke, so perhaps there are some elements of what would have been taught by hoplomachoi shown- martial arts are rife with showy moves that are less than optimum for most real world conditions.

That one segement where they stand together and rise up to strike overhand looks good to me though. I rise up like that to get my weight behind an axe blow when I chop, so maybe the added force is worth the exposure from behind your shield.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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