Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Greek Helmet/ armour database
#16
...so far, so good ! Big Grin As we can see there are various ways and means around copyright problems.

Let us move on...should we restrict ourselves to Helmets only, or include other pieces of armour and vase depictions etc as well ?

I'd be inclined to start narrowly, and expand the database from helmets later - vase pictures are going to encounter the copright problem, but mainly I think we may be surpised at just how many greek helmets are out there ( especially if you start including those found in Spain and Scythian gravesites. I bet each of us is ging to see many Helmets they haven't seen before.....) and this is enough motivation on its own for me!!

Others views ?? Smile
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#17
Is there a systematic overview of surviving Greek helmets, a la Robinson for Rome? What number are we looking at?
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
Reply
#18
Jasper said
Quote:Is there a systematic overview of surviving Greek helmets, a la Robinson for Rome? What number are we looking at?

Alas, no, Sad shock:

I suspect what we are doing will be the first proper survey/study for a hundred years,especially in English, and a lot has come to light since then!

As to numbers, more than most people suspect - I would think several hundred at least ?.......and I haven't been to the Greek museums...Greek guys, help out here?
Then there's those from Spain and Scythia.... and before Dan berates me, I forgot to mention those of Italy in my earlier post... :oops:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#19
That's an excellent idea. Big Grin
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
Reply
#20
I have some photos but I am worried of copyright problems.
If someone wants to make an artistic impression I think I can help.

Here in Athens Keramikos and National Museum allow digital photos and cell phone cameras but mo flash.

I guess its an individuals choice what to do with its photos but I will ask on copyright first.

Kind regards
Reply
#21
Quote:Let us move on...should we restrict ourselves to Helmets only, or include other pieces of armour and vase depictions etc as well ?

That's a great idea. Perhaps early representations of linothoraxes would be an interesting place to start... :wink:
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Reply
#22
Quote:Jasper said
Quote:Is there a systematic overview of surviving Greek helmets, a la Robinson for Rome? What number are we looking at?

Alas, no, Sad shock:

I suspect what we are doing will be the first proper survey/study for a hundred years,especially in English, and a lot has come to light since then!

As to numbers, more than most people suspect - I would think several hundred at least ?.......and I haven't been to the Greek museums...Greek guys, help out here?
Then there's those from Spain and Scythia.... and before Dan berates me, I forgot to mention those of Italy in my earlier post... :oops:

Portions of the corpus of Greek helmets found have been catalogued in Dintsis' massive "Hellenistische Helme," but that obviously only covers the Hellenistic ones, and even then misses some. The reason that no broad study has been done is because Greek helmets aren't really unified like Roman ones are and were much more varied and "customized." Would you, for instance, include the modified Greek helmets that have been found in Scythian graves? How modified would a helmet have to be before it cannot be included as a "Greek" helmet?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
Reply
#23
This may sound a bit academic, but...

There are several classification approaches. This is a quick generalization.

There is the "Art History" approach which uses a intuitive stylistic model: Corinthian, Insular, Attic, etc. This is useful for a viewing or non-scientific approach, but in general lacks any usefulness for any classification that supports any deductive or analytic analysis. It is easy to do, because it lacks any robust schema for any definitive criterion, and is best suited for the general viewer. There is tendency for Art Historians to be unaware of Archaeological developments, and tend to date and make cultural associations with older, and often obsolescent perspectives. Archaeologists in turn, can refer to Art History for the same purpose, and both disciplines can fall into a circular pattern of quoting each other.

The other type is the more scientific analysis. There are varying degrees of this, but the most applicable method is attribute analysis. This is where various characteristics are defined and an artifact either has fits into the schema by falling into one of several characteristics, or by the presence or absence of of them. For example, a helmet has one of several types of cheek pieces (multiple characteristics), or "made in two halves", a characteristic that is present or absent. Attributes are often presented in a matrix type format, and lends itself to a more quantitative potential. Spatial and temporal trends are more finitely identified and evolution and distribution of a type can be followed. This enables specific questions to be posed and more explicit deduction to be made. For example, attribute X in conjunction with Y is found at (location/time period) A in a high affluence burial, but is seen at Colony B in a lower affluence burial, in a later period with a greater frequency. Conclusion: the type associates A with B and indicates a distribution pattern associated with perhaps a growing affluence economy and social status. A case in point being Sicily, where older helmet types may have been in use longer than the Greek mainland, and are a more common find.

Crest types, and crest fittings may be particularly applicable here.

The more scientific attribute approach is harder to set up, but can include an academic perspective that the Art History approach cannot. The attributes can also include the more general associative classes like Corinthian, Attic, and so forth. In the end, it is a resource that can take additive information as it becomes available from more documented and recent Archaeological finds. Archeology continues to be more factual and information rich as methodology improves, so an expandable schema, like attribute analysis is preferable to more narrow type based classifications. Information or conclusions may be extrapolated, to some degree, to older or poorly documented finds.

Just an observation on formulating the initial approach to this. I have done attribute analysis when I was active in Archeology, and it does require some consensus and delegation of purpose. However, once done, these projects seem to endure, becoming datum points for future reference.

For what it's worth

Ralph Izard
Reply
#24
Thank you very much,Ralph!Laudes. This was one of the most important messages. May I ask, can the more scientific method be usable to non experts? The purpose of the base is to be an easy source for both me that know nothing and you who are an expert,for instance. Could an amateur in Greek history be informed easily with such a structure of the data base?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
#25
What Ralph posits is indeed an important question. However, it is not necessary to answer it fully before the database is set up. It would be quite easy to start with the traditional, art history classifications and then later add extra criteria/classes. The database system doesn't care if someone wants to search for all 'Corinthian' helmets or for all 'RAT I-A' helmets.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
Reply
#26
Right... A single helmet can have many "tags", so that many types of classification may be used, then the helmets sorted according to the method the viewer wishes.
Michael D. Hafer [aka Mythos Ruler, aka eX | Vesper]
In peace men bury their fathers. In war men bury their sons.
Reply
#27
Exactly.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
Reply
#28
Hello!

For some years I'm working on a database regarding all known Ancient helmets - a huge project you can imagine, and far from complete (will never be, I fear...)
The main problems have been:

- Different nomenclature of types by English and German speaking scholars (for example the Hellenistic Attic type is often called Thracian in English literature, sometimes also the Phrygian and what is called Attic in English is known to German scholars as Italic-Chalkidian type and so on).

- A lot of mix-types with features of different main types (mainly in the Hellenistic section. For example the Phrygian-Boiotan, Attic-Boiotian Pilos, Phrygian-Chalkidian etc.)

- What can be called a "Greek helmet"?
The Italic-Chalkidian ("Attic") helmet is only found in Italy (there is also a Spanish variant) but is a clear descendant of the Greek Chalkidian helmet. The Apulo-Corinthian and Corinthian of Picenian form are also closely related to the Corinthian.
The earliest greek helmets have their origin in the Urnfield-culture resp. the Near East.

- For the main types of the late geometrical to early classical period there are already useable typologies but there is still no overview. The existing typologies have to be modiefied in some cases.

- Making photos of the helmets is the biggest problem. It is forbidden more frequently to take pictures in museums as I came to know in Athens last week. Apart from this, many of the finds are not exhibited for the public.

- the huge amount of material to be considered.
My lists consist of c. 1000 of c. 1300 helmets and fragments of "Greek" helmets.

Some of the problems have already been mentioned before, but these are my personal experiences.

If the project will come to life one day, I would be glad to share my informations.

Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
Reply
#29
Another most valuable contribution!
When you say 1000-1300 helmets do you mean you have info on these helmets,too(when,where they come from) or just the photos? For how many of them do you have permission to use?
I have about 400-500 photos of greek helmets, some of them appear in more than one photo and some photos include more than one helmet, but for most of them I don't have much info of the exact date and place. Nor for the copyright.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
#30
My lists (of the c. 1000 pieces) comprising the findspot/whereabout of each helmet (at least the information that it exists/existed somewhere). There are c. 300 Corinthians in existence (mentioned by Pflug in 1988) of which I have no informations at all.

For each helmet there is a "fact file" (in work) which has the following informations:

- Best available Picture
- Catalogue-number
- Type
- Findspot/-date
- Present/former whereabouts
- Material
- Dimensions
- Date
- Remarks (inscriptions etc.)
- Bibliography

Concerning the pictures, I collect what I can but have only some hundred original photos made by me in the museums (of different quality). The rest is from the Internet, scans from books or descriptions found elsewhere (I never planned to make these viewable to the public).
The main purpose of this work is to have an overall view of the existing helmets as a base for future work regarding typology, geographical concentration and to have a useful bibliography.
By the way it is interesting to note how many cotradicting inventory-numbers you can find in the literature :roll:

Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann
Andreas Gagelmann
Berlin, Germany
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Great picture Greek armour etc on 5th C terracotta sitalkes 3 1,398 04-15-2013, 08:17 PM
Last Post: Dan Diffendale
  A Greek Dark Age Centaur Armour hansi 8 2,848 11-01-2012, 08:52 AM
Last Post: Dan Howard
  PHOTOS-One more helmet for the database... Iagoba 20 4,897 11-25-2007, 09:28 PM
Last Post: Vishtaspa

Forum Jump: