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Making Pteruges (or at least trying to make Pteruges!)
#31
Quote:Besides art and sculpture, have any been found?

Nope, not a single set of Roman subs have ever been found.

Art, text, and sculpture, combined with hypothesis & archeological conjecture concerning the hidden parts under the loricas, is all we have.

Travis's site is pretty much the most informational out there concerning this, just scroll down to "subarmalis" and "Pteruges"

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/parts.htm

As for the Adamclisi metopes:
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... metope.htm
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#32
Quote:No, they certainly aren't only for officers. A lot of art shows regular soldiers, even auxiliaries with pteryges. You can look at the Adamklisi metopes (considered one of the most accurate depictions of Roman military equipment in art).

Well, although this is true, there is a distinct possibility that these non-officers are Praetorians. They are almost always shown in the immediate vicinity of the Emperor, and they have a high percentage of gear that is, by some, thought to be more indicative of the PG: scale armor, oval scutae, and neo-attic helmets. The Emperors routinely took their Praetorians on campaign, further clouding the issue.

Images of pteruge-clad [segmentata-wearing] soldiers that can be definitively identified as legionaries, and NOT Praetorians, are fairly non-existent on 1st-2nd Century representational evidence, IMO.

The dearth of evidence about this particular uniform item allows us as legionary reenactors some leeway, though.

Gil / Valerius, LXF
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#33
Quote:
Marcus Mummius:wsur02g1 Wrote:No, they certainly aren't only for officers. A lot of art shows regular soldiers, even auxiliaries with pteryges. You can look at the Adamklisi metopes (considered one of the most accurate depictions of Roman military equipment in art).

Well, although this is true, there is a distinct possibility that these non-officers are Praetorians. They are almost always shown in the immediate vicinity of the Emperor, and they have a high percentage of gear that is, by some, thought to be more indicative of the PG: scale armor, oval scutae, and neo-attic helmets. The Emperors routinely took their Praetorians on campaign, further clouding the issue.

Images of pteruge-clad [segmentata-wearing] soldiers that can be definitively identified as legionaries, and NOT Praetorians, are fairly non-existent on 1st-2nd Century representational evidence, IMO.

The dearth of evidence about this particular uniform item allows us as legionary reenactors some leeway, though.

Gil / Valerius, LXF

The Adamklissi soldiers aren't praetorians, they're common rank and file...

There are better pictures than this out there, but these illustrate the point:

[Image: met-c.jpg]

[Image: met-b.jpg]

@ Julius Valerius: Did you see my question about the glueing of the cut pteryges on the fan pattern?

Vale,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
http://www.LEGIOXI.be
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#34
Well, I have 108 Pteruges made.... it's time to start sewing them onto my Subarmalis! The sad part is... that's only enough for two layers... I want to do three!

I'm trying to go with 12 Pteruges agian on each shoulder in one layer and then a second layer of 10 offset to the first.

I'm still having trouble getting them to fall like the statues though. If I cut four off, and just have 8... they do fall better (like in the example above) but, then I don't have any Pteruges on the front and under the arm like seen in the statues... only on the shoulders.

Anyways... I'm still making adjustments but for now... this is my pile of Pteruges...

[Image: a100.jpg]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#35
Have just read this again, and yes it is only logical to have them attached closely together. And also in layers, as Jef says......good going.
Wish I had gotten as far.... :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#36
Quote:Wish I had gotten as far.... :roll:

Come Gaius.... stop wishin' and start sewin'!!! :wink:
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#37
Quote:
Quote:Wish I had gotten as far.... :roll:

Come Gaius.... stop wishin' and start sewin'!!! :wink:

Hell, the last time I tried sewing......well anyway, lets just say I would still be doing that job if I hadn't gone to a seamstress!! :oops:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#38
Just an update...

My original idea of making the shoulder Pteruges like a sleeve (above) did not work so, they would not hang correctly....
so, I cut them all off! Cry

I sewed them to a shoulder pad of felt and linen in a fan pattern... they hang correctly now and do not show any gaps. Smile

I still have to add one more layer Pteruges, I want at least 20 on each shoulder and some trim to cover the point where I sewed them to the shoulder pad.

[Image: SPIMG_7718.jpg]

[Image: SPIMG_7719.jpg]

I know it looks a little messy, and I have to fix that one bad stitching job but, with the trim covering and another layer, it should look nice.
[Image: SPIMG_7720.jpg]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#39
That had crossd my mind...glad to see you tried it and it worked....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#40
Here they are with the trim added

The second photo show one shoulder Pteruges set correct (right side up), the other shows it flipped over upside down so you can see the underside.

[Image: SPIMG_7728.jpg]

[Image: SPIMG_7729.jpg]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
Reply
#41
Looking good! I was wondering if there would be a difference in the length as they fit around the shoulder? Shorter to the front, lenghtening as they travel around then shortening again as you go to the back of the armpit?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#42
Well done Anthony. I'm still not sure if I'm going to add fringe to my shoulder s or not yet...i'll be wearing it all under a subarmalis and I'm not sure if the fringe will hold up to the rubbing of the steel plates of the shoulder guards. I may just go plain linen wrapped felt.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
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#43
Quote:I was wondering if there would be a difference in the length as they fit around the shoulder? Shorter to the front, lenghtening as they travel around then shortening again as you go to the back of the armpit?

Thanks Gaius!

I'm not sure, most examples show the Pteruges much shorter under the arm. For now, since I my sleeve method did not work and I cut them all off... for now, I'm going with the shoulders only. I might add shorter Pteruges to the Subs, under the arm... I'm not sure yet.

Quote:I'm not sure if the fringe will hold up to the rubbing of the steel plates of the shoulder guards. I may just go plain linen wrapped felt.

Thanks Magnus!

If the fringe is hanging at the end of the Pteruges, wouldn’t it be rubbing only on you arm or tunic?

If you meant to say the Pteruges rubbing against and underneath the shoulder doublers, a strip of thick leather, placed across the top of the Pteruges, would take care of that. You could make it red leather and leave a slight overhang so that most of it won’t be seen .

Most examples of ancient sculpture I’ve seen, where Pteruges are present, there is almost always fringe attached. (Please note, the Praetorian Guard Pteruges example (with disks at the end of the Pteruges) appears to be part of the reconstruction and not original for antiquity)
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
Reply
#44
I suppose if I make the pteryges long enough to go past the shoulder plates the ends of the fringe would be ok....sucks cuz there aren't a lot of pteryges in reliefs with segmentata. Sad
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
LEGIO II AVG COH VIII
It amazes me how quickly stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

"The greatest impediment of all is the square-jawed, flat-talking Tatum, who is so wooden he presents a fire hazard." - The Toronto Star on Channing Tatum in "The Eagle".

"I am on a drug. It\'s called Charlie Sheen. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body" - Charlie Sheen
Reply
#45
Quote:there aren't a lot of pteryges in reliefs with segmentata

That does make sense though, as I have found out from making Pteruges, they must have been expensive.

Even with a modern sewing machine, making over 100 Pteruges, each cut from strips of felt, then wrapped with linen and sewn with trim and then adding fringe to the end of each (the ancients would have wound each piece of fringe by hand) wow! That is an awful lot of work, very time consuming… which would make them expensive.

To have Pteruges on your subs, and to have them look like the ancient sculptures (not like Hollywood) would have cost a great deal. I think they were a bit of a status symbol… perhaps only the upper class, wealthier officers, Evocatus (Evocatii or veterans) with years of service could afford them.

I think anyone could have worn them but… not everyone could have afforded them.

That logic is at least consistent with the sculptural evidence… we always see layers upon layers of Pteruges on a statue of an Emperor or General, we sometimes see them on the grave stones of veterans (whose families had to have been wealthy to have purchased the grave stone reliefs with full body portraits) but, we don’t see them on nearly any of the soldiers on Trajan’s column.
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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