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Graham\'s Gladiatiors
#16
Those little hooks on the ends of the crossbar would be excellent for pulling a shield out of the way and open the belly for a quick thrust.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#17
Conal,

Quote:I dont agree there are "numerous" depictions where it is difficult to define the style as they were very distinct and specific and in most instances it is possible to identufy which is which. I would be intersted in any you can point me to which are vague?

ASTIVUS - Villa Borghese.

Thracians without Griffon Crests - same source

Pergamon helmet - Provacator?murmillo? other?
Mark Downes/Mummius

Cent Gittus, COH X. LEG XX. VV. Deva Victrix

____________________________________________
"Don\'\'\'\'t threaten me with a dead fish!" - Withnail
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#18
Thanks for the interesting comments especially to Patrik! Because of you I looked through my books for answers and straight away found something entirely different which will be really helpful for my research into Roman military clothing!

I did have reservations about posting these pictures here on RAT and this was actually the first time I have ever painted Gladiators.

As I know a lot of you use my work in your own research I do not like making mistakes and certainly not more than five, so your comments deserve some answers.

Firstly the excuses. :oops: The book was commissioned via an Agent. The client provided a strict deadline, ten pictures were required but in spite of the fact that the book was on Gladiators only three pictures had Gladiators in!!! The client also provided a brief of what they wanted in the illustrations, this was not as restrictive as another book I worked on about Ancient Greece, where the clients ideas of what all hoplite armour should look like appeared to have been inspired by the 1950's movies 'Helen of Troy' and Alexander the Great'!

There was also a series of design layouts which the illustrations had to fit, these can often be very challenging shapes and not always ideal. (perhaps the worst was fitting pikemen into an 'L' shape, the clients design did it because his pikes were five foot long!) So please bare all this in mind with some of the following answers.

Trident and secutor: Well I know the source I used for for these, so I am now searching for what they might have been based on. I will update you on those as and when I get the information.

Hoplomachus: I am in the same company here as Junkelmann and Angus McBride who have both depicted this gladiator with a griffin crest. The Junkelmann reconstruction was in the British Museum publication accompanying the ancient sports and spectacle exhibition while McBrides illustration was in the much maligned Osprey Gladiator book. I kept a copy of all the errors in that book that were pointed out here on RAT a few years ago but funnily enough the griffin on the Hoplomachus crest was not one of them! Nevertheless due to the deadline I broke one of my own rules here that you should always check the original sources first wherever possible rather than copy modern works. Mea Culpa!

Fighting poses. Well I am a bit surprised with Patriks' comments on this one as all the poses are based on original sources. Even a brief glance through the available images reveal a variety of stances other than the simple jab with the gladius. The over the shield thrust is very common and the two gladiators fighting is a straight copy off a terracotta. Even the pose with the raised gladius is seen many times, although usually striking an opponent rather than hitting a post. Nevertheless as this was supposed to be a training scene anyway, any 'errors' on behalf of the recruits would indeed deserve a blow from the Doctores. I am sure that photographs of any gladiator re-enactor group in action would reveal far more poses than the straightforward legionary prod which by the way would not have been accepted by the client as they wanted action!

Strophium. A far more simple explanation here. The book was for children and unlike some children's books I have seen in France, Spain and Germany which can be quite graphic as regards both nudity and violence, that would probably not be tolerated in the UK and certainly not in America where the book was published.

Hope this explains some things.

Graham.

P.s. Mark, the Gladiatrix is not Susannah Shadrake but you are now getting very warm!
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#19
Quote:Conal,

Quote:I dont agree there are "numerous" depictions where it is difficult to define the style as they were very distinct and specific and in most instances it is possible to identufy which is which. I would be intersted in any you can point me to which are vague?

ASTIVUS - Villa Borghese.

See here e.g.

Hm, I find this one to be easily identified as a Secutor. Of course the equipment (helmet, mostly) differs a bit from what we are normally used to - you have to bear in mind though, that this mosaic is first half of the fourth century and equipment changed over time. Most of what you see with reenactors is first century stuff.
You could of course argue for a Murmillo, but their helmets developed quite differently in the 2nd/3rd century, like this
Quote:Thracians without Griffon Crests - same source

Never really looked into this, but again, you are pointing at a very late depiction,so changes might be due to that.
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#20
"ASTIVUS - Villa Borghese."

He is a Secutor as evidenced by his fight with a retiarius. In fact that whole section seems to be Secutors vs Retiarius.


"Thracians without Griffon Crests - same source"


Are there any Thraicians in this mosaic ? Do you have an illustrations please ?


"Pergamon helmet - Provacator?murmillo? other?"

Why would you associate this as a possible Provocator helmet?

I would say ther are possibilities of it being both Murmillo & Thracian as the Griffin was I believe detachable or at least an add on to various types of peaked helmet. There is a Griffin attachment found at Illerup bog in Denmark which has been attributed to being from a Roman helmet. I believe this might belong to a gladiators helmet of this type.

Cheers Big Grin D D
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#21
Hello Svenja

Quote:I understand it correctly that the picture in the first post shows real people? So I wonder how the woman on the left at first tied her strophium and if it really stays up when fighting. Because out of my own experience I had the strophium just wrapped around me like shown in that picture but it didn't stay up and I had to constantly adjust it. Quite a nuisance...

The model I used for this picture was from the group Britannia. She simply posed like that wearing a strophium (pinned or tied at the back) as this was required for the book. Normally when she takes part in her groups Gladiator displays she wears a metal muscled cuirass with an ordinary tunic underneath. So sorry, I can not pass on any practical advice.

However it is my intention to work on some more accurate representations in the future of Gladiators including a Gladiatrix to sell as limited edition prints, so all comments are welcome.

Best wishes
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#22
Conal & Martin,

Quote:Hm, I find this one to be easily identified as a Secutor. Of course the equipment (helmet, mostly) differs a bit from what we are normally used to

My point exactly.

Let me rephrase; If you take a selection of gladiator depictions and take away the helmets you'll probably be able to identify them from the combination of other equipment. Take the same depicted helmets and you'll probably struggle to identify the types.

Late depictions of Thracians or not, my point was you can't take a small detail and suggest it is he defining point of a gladiator. Are we absolutely certain beyond all doubt that the Griffon symbol was not used by any other gladiator type??

Just a discussion point! I'm open to corrections like the info Svenja gave on the Parade armour. I also had not differentiated the pomp from the 'probatio amorum' hence accept the point regarding the pomp being unarmed.

I still stand by the fighting stances though.
Mark Downes/Mummius

Cent Gittus, COH X. LEG XX. VV. Deva Victrix

____________________________________________
"Don\'\'\'\'t threaten me with a dead fish!" - Withnail
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#23
Quote:Let me rephrase; If you take a selection of gladiator depictions and take away the helmets you'll probably be able to identify them from the combination of other equipment. Take the same depicted helmets and you'll probably struggle to identify the types.

I guess I misunderstood you then. I was thinking of the whole set of equipment combined.

As for the helmets alone - I'd say it depends quite a bit on what helmet you are thinking of, some are quite unique and clear in their shape, decorations etc. while others not so much. And this again of course can chang over time, but I needn't tell you that :-) )

Quote:Late depictions of Thracians or not, my point was you can't take a small detail and suggest it is he defining point of a gladiator. Are we absolutely certain beyond all doubt that the Griffon symbol was not used by any other gladiator type??

Yes, I agree with you here for the most part, there are of course exceptions like the retiarius' shoulder guard e.g., where a single item is singular and defining for one type of gladiator for all we know.
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#24
Quote:The model I used for this picture was from the group Britannia. She simply posed like that wearing a strophium (pinned or tied at the back) as this was required for the book. Normally when she takes part in her groups Gladiator displays she wears a metal muscled cuirass with an ordinary tunic underneath. So sorry, I can not pass on any practical advice.

Hi Graham,

I could not guess so I cheated.. I asked Dan! :twisted:

He replied:
"The Gladiatrix is Mandy Turner from Britannia.
She was in Channel 4's 'Gladiator Girl' broadcast about 5 years ago. Her kit was inspired by this sarcophagus friese of an amazon in the Vatican (the vague labelling suggested it was 2nd-3rd C AD.. we liked it as we wanted to do something different to the Amazonia v Achillea stele).

Obviously she didn’t want to bear her breasts as about 50% of a modern audience would complain... so a breastplate was commissioned... artistic licence we know... but... hey sue us!

Feel free to forward the following text & images:

[Image: 42_Gladiator_Girl_WEB_1.jpg][Image: 42_Brit_Mandy_Turner_1.jpg][Image: 42_Mandy_Reference_1.jpg]
"She also does modelling & the odd bit of TV work. I'm sure some people will have an issue with this kit." Big Grin

Dan also asks me to apologise because he can't post to this list anymore - due to a mixture of technical difficulties and too much work! Cry
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#25
Quote:Hello Svenja
Quote:I understand it correctly that the picture in the first post shows real people? So I wonder how the woman on the left at first tied her strophium and if it really stays up when fighting. Because out of my own experience I had the strophium just wrapped around me like shown in that picture but it didn't stay up and I had to constantly adjust it. Quite a nuisance...
The model I used for this picture was from the group Britannia. She simply posed like that wearing a strophium (pinned or tied at the back) as this was required for the book. Normally when she takes part in her groups Gladiator displays she wears a metal muscled cuirass with an ordinary tunic underneath. So sorry, I can not pass on any practical advice.

Answer from Dan:
"Mandy has either a basic tunic or subligaria (a la our book).
This item of kit was rigged for the picture as far as I'm aware/can recall & therefore not something she'd normally wear... sorry we can't be more help.
Ask Graham about the 'Katy of Britannia' pictures....
A certain Roman bikini was modelled
"
Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#26
Robert wrote:

Quote:I could not guess so I cheated.. I asked Dan!

I did not realise you were that keen to find out! Ah I see you also posted the pic on the Britannia forum, with an even less flattering response than here on RAT. As I said, I knew it was a mistake to post them! A one legged Gladiator and blue leg warmers! :oops:

As well as the Roman military books I am working on I want to extend the range of prints with Gladiator subjects and there is another project in the pipeline on all aspects of Roman costume.



Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#27
Quote:Ah I see you also posted the pic on the Britannia forum, with an even less flattering response than here on RAT. As I said, I knew it was a mistake to post them! A one legged Gladiator and blue leg warmers! :oops: .

Don't fret about it. :wink: Most people there like to take the piss, especially when they recognise Dan! It's hardly 'the Britannia forum' either, more like a place for refugees from 'The Other Place', a semi-mythical forum where apparently moderators (even more zealous than me and my colleagues here) drive many re-enactors underground.

It's a club, really, and responses there are more fun than fact. Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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#28
Marcus Caecilius Avitus\\n[quote]

"If you take a selection of gladiator depictions and take away the helmets you'll probably be able to identify them from the combination of other equipment. Take the same depicted helmets and you'll probably struggle to identify the types."

This, I suggest is to do with the competancy of the artist at rendering helmets, than an idication that there was not a strict adherence to helmet type.


"Late depictions of Thracians or not, my point was you can't take a small detail and suggest it is he defining point of a gladiator. Are we absolutely certain beyond all doubt that the Griffon symbol was not used by any other gladiator type??"

I think we can if the only time it comes up in both visual representation and on actual helmets is in relation to what is clearly a Thraex. This is shown by the fact that both the Murmillo and Thracian are depicted using helmets with (a) round eye protectors alal Provocator and (b) full face grills. The differntiation being the presence if the Griffons head.

"I still stand by the fighting stances though"

Sorry Sad cant agree that telegraphing blows would be appreciated by a sophisticated audience. Winning with style yes but from what I have read the crowd preferred real fighting with heart & meaning to blows. If you telegraphed a blow and the opponenet did not slice you or stick you they would not be happy!

If you can point to anything which contradicts this that would be great ?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#29
Conal,

Quote:This, I suggest is to do with the competancy of the artist at rendering helmets, than an idication that there was not a strict adherence to helmet type.


If I'm mistaken please tell me, but the classification of the helemt finds comes from caomparisons to artistic representations. Or is there another source?

I accept that the griffon emlem has not been found in relation to any other gladiator, but it does not appear to be universal with Thracians. Therefore could it perhaps have some other conotation?

Perhaps the phrase telegraphing is overstating it, but the original suggestion inferred that gladiators fought like legionaries remaining tucked in behind their shields, not reaching out beyond the shileds with their waepons and keeping their arms down. This type of combat bores an audience now and it would have bored one then.

An audience at an amphitheratre 'sophisticated'? purlease!!
Mark Downes/Mummius

Cent Gittus, COH X. LEG XX. VV. Deva Victrix

____________________________________________
"Don\'\'\'\'t threaten me with a dead fish!" - Withnail
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#30
Svenja:
A slipping strophium can only be interpreted as a Good Thing!
Pecunia non olet
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