Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Battle of Cunaxa Illustration
#16
Paul,
In Mikhael V Gorelik's book,"Warriors of Eurasia, he has a Scythian warrior wearing similar chaps. Didn't the Persians adapt this practice from the Scythians..?

Thanks for the comments!

Johnny
Johnny Shumate
Reply
#17
Nice one Johhny.
I like that you have shown the persian saggaris instead of the skythian.
Persian were influenced by the Skythians in theit cavalry equipment.

Kind regards
Reply
#18
I think that sort of armor its as old as Homeric times...

BTW: I think that is also called: Parapleuridia , also the Lycians, Paphlagonians, Achaemenids etc., used it.
MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
:lol: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />:lol:
Reply
#19
Quote:Paul,
In Mikhael V Gorelik's book,"Warriors of Eurasia, he has a Scythian warrior wearing similar chaps. Didn't the Persians adapt this practice from the Scythians..?

Thanks for the comments!

Johnny


Not necessarily. The heavy horsemen are clearly based on John Warry’s reconstruction of Kyros’ horse guard and I think, there are some possible mistakes in that reconstruction and I wrote a text long time ago on TWC (presenting my own model of that guard for RTW):


The main source for these men is Xenophon. Not only his ‘Anabasis’, in which he sees Kyros’ guard with his own eyes, but also other works, most notably the ‘Kyropaideia’. Although describing Kyros the Great, many of the descriptions have to be applied on Kyros the Younger, especially those about his companions’ arms and armour, representing early 4th cent.BC high-tech. Plutarch provides some info, too, but Diodor is rather worthless in comparison - as so often.

The rider is armoured with a bronze helmet and a cuirass (cf. Xen.Anab. I 8,6). The latter might be a Greek influenced type (cf. Diod. XIV 22,6), but has a throat guard (cf. Xen.Kyr. I 2,13). The Persian cavalry armour was very effective, often Greek spears simply could not penetrate it, but broke (cf. Xen.Hell. III 4,13; Plut.Aris. XIV 5). Missiles were stopped very effectively as well (cf. Plut.Arta.X 1f). The παραμηρίδια (cf. Xen.Anab. I 8,6) are not some kind of armoured trousers, as Warry reconstructs, but parts of the horse armour. A passage from the Kyropaideia is illustrating that: “Their horses were armed with frontlets, breast-pieces, and thigh-pieces (παραμηρίδια) of bronze; these served to protect the thighs of the rider as wellâ€
------------
[Image: regnumhesperium.png]
Reply
#20
Also, the helmet which Warry reconstructed Cyrus' bodyguard with is based on Hellenistic styles, that is, too early for the period in question.
Otherwise, great work, as usual, Johnny Smile
Laran aka Sait
Reply
#21
Marvellous. The only pictures I like more momentarily are your illustrations of Greek camp life in AW 2,1. :wink:

I cannot say something about the helmet, but is the reconstruction of the leg armour not a possibility? Can we be so sure about what Xenophon meant? He used the word "parameridiois" for the leg protection in Anab. 1.8.6, but must that mean the same as in the Kyroupedia? In Anab. 1.8.7 he mentioned armour of the horses for the head and the breast, so it is possible that in Anab. 1.8.6 he described really the armour of the riders themselves.
Wolfgang Zeiler
Reply
#22
Quote:Not necessarily. The heavy horsemen are clearly based on John Warry’s reconstruction of Kyros’ horse guard and I think, there are some possible mistakes in that reconstruction and I wrote a text long time ago on TWC (presenting my own model of that guard for RTW):

I'm afraid John Warry is not responsible for any 'possible' mistakes in that depiction - it was my research that the illustration was based on, Kai, so the responsibility is mine. Smile

Quote:but also other works, most notably the ‘Kyropaideia’. Although describing Kyros the Great, many of the descriptions have to be applied on Kyros the Younger, especially those about his companions’ arms and armour, representing early 4th cent high tech.

Caution is required here - after all the Cyropaedia is a work of fiction in which Xenophon sets out some of his 'idealised' views on arms, armour and tactics - including high tech, thus his descriptions of cavalry equipment for example are what he thinks they should ideally have , rather than how they were equipped in reality.
Quote:....but has a throat guard (cf. Xen.Kyr. I 2,13).
I think your reference is incorrect - do you mean Xenophon's recommendations on cavalry equipment ? In any event there is no mention of throatguards in the Anabasis, nor do Darius' guards in the Alexander mosaic have them ( though Alexander wore one on occasion according to Plutarch, and one was found in the 'Philip' tomb)
Quote:The παραμηρίδια (cf. Xen.Anab. I 8,6) are not some kind of armoured trousers, as Warry reconstructs, but parts of the horse armour.
No "trousers" are depicted, but 'chaps' - and they are shown fastened exactly as on the sculpture you show, a strap across the horses withers, and a further strap around the lower back of the rider.
Quote:The question for a shield cannot be answered for sure, in fact, there are some passages in the Kyropaideia noting shields (cf. Xen.Kyr. I 2,9), but he seems to present them as something old-fashioned,
Persian cavalry did not carry shields at this early date, and the 'garrison' referred to in your reference as having light shields are not described as mounted...they take "long tramps and runs" and are clearly on foot.
Quote:The throat guard is another new protective equipment, which is reported to be shaped tightly on the neck
...again, Xenophon is describing his ideal, and would surely have mentioned its use at Cunaxa, if it was used....but he doesn't.
Quote:Xenophon is reporting often purple (cf. Xen.Kyr.VII 1,2),

Again, the Cyropaedia is fiction, and all sorts of people wear purple.....unlike reality, where it is largely restricted to Royalty.( which might extend to the King's "friends", but would not be widely worn.)
Quote:seldom red (cf. Xen.Kyr. VIII 3,3) as the colour of the companions’ cloths
...the items here described as purple(again), sable, red and walnut red are cloaks/kandys, not tunics and are 'costly' gifts to close friends of The Great King in Xenophon's imagination - hardly the best guide to real life.
Quote:but never never yellow
The earlier Persepolis reliefs show all sorts of colours, including yellow tunics for the Great Kings guards. Yellow/yellowish tunics are also worn by some of Darius' guards on the Alexander mosaic.
Quote:Moreover purple surcoats could have been worn during the battle of Kunaxa (cf. Plut.Arta. XI 6), omitted by Warry
Plutarch has Cyrus eunuch servants ( not guards) possibly wearing purple tunics. He also has Cyrus killed after nightfall !
Quote: The only certified colour of the helmet’s plume is white (cf. Xen.Kyr.VII 1,2), not black
Again, from Xenophon's imagination in his work of fiction for the legendary Cyrus ! The Anabasis makes no mention of plume colour and black is the most common.
It would not be good research to base a reconstruction with an over-reliance on a single source, especially when that source is a work of fiction!! Smile
The reconstruction in "Warfare in the Classical World" is as accurate as any, and is based on many sources - coins, the sculptures you refer to, the Alexander mosaic (for possible colours), Xenophon's works and others I can no longer recall.
Johnny's painting is therefore also as accurate as any other reconstruction, nor is it outside the realms of possibility that a Scythian-style parapleuridae could be the personal choice or even war-trophy of an individual Persian warrior - it is dangerous, given the general paucity of information on things ancient to categorically say something could 'never' be !! :wink: :wink:
I also like the fact that the Persian cavalry are shown mostly unarmoured which is how they are likely to have been, with only guards and officers having the complete panoply.
Quote:Also, the helmet which Warry reconstructed Cyrus' bodyguard with is based on Hellenistic styles, that is, too early for the period in question.
The helmet and crest style were taken from an early fourth century coin - the pilos type more commonly depicted was not the only option - though it is possible the coin was intended to show that type, and it was slightly distorted to fit the coin.It is most certainly not Hellenistic. Smile
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#23
Johny,congratulations and Laudes,again!I like the details of armour more than all your previous works I can remember.
I haven't done much of a research on Persian clothing and armour,but I can at least say for sure that the clothes Johny painted for Prsians,are as accurate as it can be,being a complete copy of the persian clothes from the Alexander Sarcofagus.Colors have survived on the marble,showing the exact colors and patterns Johny painted.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
#24
I would like to see that coin that Paullus have state it very much about the helmet that look like hellenistic. Smile


Johnny either way could have choosed the Conical bronzed Persian helmet that the greeks captured at Marathon & dedicated it there, wich is 5th c BC..

or a crested pilos that was in use.

[Image: PersianHelmet.jpg]
MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
:lol: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />:lol:
Reply
#25
Sorry Gioi, after 27 years, I can't recall exactly where the coin was illustrated. I do recall there were several different coins, all similar and that at least one other showed a rider with Pilos type helmet.
They show, on the left, a Hoplite facing right, in an 'on-guard' position being attacked by a persian rider who faces left, toward the Hoplite.

There is also 5th-4th century seal impression which shows an identical scene of an armoured Hoplite in crested helmet being attacked by a horseman in tube-and -yoke corselet, plumed Pilos helmet without cheekpieces, and parapleuridae thigh protection - the seal impression is in a private collection, but was illustrated in Seyrig "Cachets Achemenides" in Archaeologica Orientalia in Memoriam, Ernst Herzfield N.Y. 1952.

Another similar depiction is shown on a 4th century Anatolian Chalcedony, this time with the Hoplite wearing a plumed Pilos helmet. The Persian rider again has a tube-and-yoke corselet and parapleuridae, but this time has what appears to be a soft Persian tiara/cap. ( shown in J.H.S XLVIII (1928) pp153-157.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#26
Very lifelike painting! Congratulations and more laudes!
_________________________________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
#27
Quote:Sorry Gioi, after 27 years, I can't recall exactly where the coin was illustrated. I do recall there were several different coins, all similar and that at least one other showed a rider with Pilos type helmet.
They show, on the left, a Hoplite facing right, in an 'on-guard' position being attacked by a persian rider who faces left, toward the Hoplite.

There is also 5th-4th century seal impression which shows an identical scene of an armoured Hoplite in crested helmet being attacked by a horseman in tube-and -yoke corselet, plumed Pilos helmet without cheekpieces, and parapleuridae thigh protection - the seal impression is in a private collection, but was illustrated in Seyrig "Cachets Achemenides" in Archaeologica Orientalia in Memoriam, Ernst Herzfield N.Y. 1952.


Another similar depiction is shown on a 4th century Anatolian Chalcedony, this time with the Hoplite wearing a plumed Pilos helmet. The Persian rider again has a tube-and-yoke corselet and parapleuridae, but this time has what appears to be a soft Persian tiara/cap. ( shown in J.H.S XLVIII (1928) pp153-157.

Dont worry Paullus! Smile

it seems that I have seen the royal seals & some other, but drawings not life color.

The exeption is that coin....Thanx! Smile
MNI Gioi u F**ckers Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
:lol: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" />:lol:
Reply
#28
Thanks for the reply John. I indeed did not know it was your reconstruction, and I of course understand you are going to defend it with dedication. Smile

Still, references to the Kyrupaideia are in no way to be dismissed so lightly. Calling the throat-guard of the cuirass e.g. “fictionâ€
------------
[Image: regnumhesperium.png]
Reply
#29
Hi, Kai ! Smile
Quote:Thanks for the reply John.
....uu.mm...actually it's Paul - ASFIK John Warry is deceased.

Quote:Still, references to the Kyrupaideia are in no way to be dismissed so lightly.
I did not "dismiss" them at all. I simply made two points:-
1) Caution must be used in using this source, because it is a work of fiction, and Xenophon could dress the legendary Cyrus' guards in whatever he could imagine ( even if based on what he had seen.) c.f. Xen.Cyro.VI.iv.2 where a Persian called Abradatas mounts his chariot dressed in much gold, a purple tunic down to his feet, a linen corselet and even the helmet plume is purple/hyacinth !! All most improbable and imaginative !
2) Evidence should be weighed. On the one hand, we have Xenophon's fictional Guards dressed uniformly in purple ( unlikely), on the other we have iconograhical representations from before and after this time showing The Great King's guards dressed in several colours (but not purple!), with yellow tones predominant
[quote]Calling the throat-guard of the cuirass e.g. “fictionâ€
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#30
Here are some photos of a sarcophagus of a noble Persian, found in 1998 in Çanakkale, Turkey, dating to late 5th c. BC. The colors are well preserved. One of the sides depicts a hunting scene, the other a battle scene where the deceased man wearing a corselet attacks from his horse an infantryman with his spear. A sword (akinakes) is also hanging on his right side. The attacked infantryman is dressed in long-sleeved tunic and has a headband. He is armed with a small shield and reaches for his sword. Another infantryman is standing behind the Persian's horse. He also wears a long-sleeved tunic and trousers. In his left hand he grasps a shield identical to the shield of the fallen man and two javelins. In his right he holds a machaira sword.
The bone analysis showed that the man was 22-28 years old, and died by falling from horse.

The photos are from Turkish magazine 'ArkeoAtlas'.
Laran aka Sait
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Peltasts and chariots at Cunaxa Sean Manning 26 2,765 02-19-2013, 04:09 PM
Last Post: koechlyruestow
  battle of Cunaxa eugene 9 4,971 10-07-2010, 02:49 AM
Last Post: Macedon
  Cunaxa, Sippar, and the Canal of the King Jona Lendering 0 769 07-12-2006, 10:10 PM
Last Post: Jona Lendering

Forum Jump: