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EUREKA - Roman army troops
#31
Paul McDonnell-Staff wrote: Your work sounds extremely interesting, and I for one eagerly await publication. Are you able to give an approximate time estimate?

Unfortunately not an accurate prediction but hopefully next year (late that is). I am including an overview of the political system and how the voting was conducted, but I am not going into great detail on this. I believe those who have a better grasp of the Latin language and Roman law and politics will find the information in the book a positive tool to build on. Well that’s what I am hoping for.

Steven James
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#32
I'll definitely get your book !

I like your explanation of triarii.

For example J.F.C. Fuller in his book "Julius Caesar: Man, Soldier, and Tyrant" mentions that troops that fought "in front of standards" ("antesigniferi"/"preaquiliferi") were the cutting edge of the legion.

Well..it's Late Republic, but I think custom might be similar. In battle of Ilerda Campaign, there was mention of Caesar sending his first line troops to capture hill from Pompeians and they failed. It can be interpreted either that he sent legion's worst troops (I personally don't think so) to try to capture the hill..or that he sent the best.

While I do not much like that book, since I think JFC Fuller was clearly a victim of his own assumptions (not even trying to find alternative explanations, just dismissing the available evidence), he does have few interesting points in the book..especially considering the character of Caesar.
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#33
Steven, first off I'd like to say that your research is highly interesting to me, being interested as I am in the Punic Wars (my favorite period too!), and the earlier political and military system also. Thanks for the research and please continue posting on it.

By the way, I think you've sort of reinvented the wheel with the tribunate 50/50 election vs. the centuriate 60/40. This was already known, since Livy's time at least, because he describes how the centuriate system was geared more to the classis, since being much less numerous they still received their own century vote; whereas the tribunate system was more democratic and the votes of the upper class were swamped by the poorer folk. Perhaps you could also make a note about the proletarii (the dirt-poor folk) and how they were scorned and excluded from the Roman political system, and the reasoning the Romans had for doing this. In short, this whole ground is highly fertile, and relevant for today and for all time.

I also want to express my appreciation for your stance on respecting the classics, and on frustration towards some who express skepticism thereof. Modern historians have much too far fallen to cynicism and skepticism, which, quite opposite to careful analysis, have served to estrange and alienate them from the very classics they purport to study and admire!

I am very interested in your point about the military reforms, that they were always done after victories instead of defeats, and that the manipular system was not somehow of Samnite origin as many people sometimes proclaim. Could you share with us even just a teaser of what your view and reasoning has been, and why the Ineditum Vaticanum is incorrect?

Finally, maybe my terminology is off, but could you explain what you mean in attributing the cohort system to the 5th century? Are you trying to refute the idea that cohorts only came into existence with Marius? If so, and if cohorts as a unit existed for centuries earlier, then how does this square with the maniples, which were a fundamentally different unit?
Multi viri et feminae philosophiam antiquam conservant.

James S.
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#34
antiochus\\n[quote]Unfortunately our understanding of the triarii is misleading. F. W. Walbank in his paper “Naval Triarii, The Classical Review, Volume 64 No. 1 (1950), p10-11, tried to highlight this by stipulating the name triarii given to the fourth squadron at the naval battle of Ecnomus was a pun or a degrading nickname. The fourth squadron because it was pulling the transports were slow, and slow can relate to old age, which is what the triarii are---old men. ........

........What if there was always another 600 triarii guarding the camp? What if one group of 600 triarii were younger (46 to 50 years old) than the other group of 600 triarii? What if the Romans believed a fitting role for the older 600 triarii was to guard the camp? Now I’m not saying if an additional 600 triarii is true or false, as Polybius does say the triarii “remained constant at 600 menâ€
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#35
Quote:
Quote:Ahhhh! Hmmmm, is she single? Good looking? My age, ie between 18 and 30?

...ooooh! you shallow creature, you ! :wink:
Are you not more concerned with her lofty intellect? Her interests in matters historical ?
Quote:My age, ie between 18 and 30?

Errr...rr, Byron, don't look now, but the personal details under your avatar are a bit of a giveaway.......... Smile D lol:

Uhhhhh, yeah! :? ? twisted:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#36
Tarbicus\\n[quote]antiochus\\n[quote]Unfortunately our understanding of the triarii is misleading. F. W. Walbank in his paper “Naval Triarii, The Classical Review, Volume 64 No. 1 (1950), p10-11, tried to highlight this by stipulating the name triarii given to the fourth squadron at the naval battle of Ecnomus was a pun or a degrading nickname. The fourth squadron because it was pulling the transports were slow, and slow can relate to old age, which is what the triarii are---old men. ........

........What if there was always another 600 triarii guarding the camp? What if one group of 600 triarii were younger (46 to 50 years old) than the other group of 600 triarii? What if the Romans believed a fitting role for the older 600 triarii was to guard the camp? Now I’m not saying if an additional 600 triarii is true or false, as Polybius does say the triarii “remained constant at 600 menâ€
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#37
But then again, if a ship is towing a barge, it is going to be slow :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#38
Quote:But then again, if a ship is towing a barge, it is going to be slow :wink:

Well...since dolabra often dominated late Republican/ Principate warfare...speed was not that much of an issue.. :lol: And they still managed to surprise the enemies with their marching speed quite often... Confusedhock:
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#39
James S. wrote: By the way, I think you've sort of reinvented the wheel with the tribunate 50/50 election vs. the centuriate 60/40. This was already known, since Livy's time at least.

No one really knows the voting numbers in the tribal assembly as no one knows how it was correctly organised.


Steven James
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#40
Jim Bowers wrote: I'm also not sure I'd take the naval 'triarii' nickname as a serious derogatory one either, if you take it from the viewpoint that the Romans had a sense of humour, for all we know it might have been old timers themselves who dubbed them so.

Thanks Jim for the correction. Walbank refers to it as humour and my use of the word as a "degrading nickname" was incorrect and also misrepresenting Professor Walbank.

Steven James
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#41
Quote:By following my previous posting of 1200 velites, 1200 hastati, 1200 principes and 1200 triarii totalling 4800 men when divided by 10 would created ten cohort of 480 men. Is that enough teasing?
I'm just curious, Steven. How would you envisage your four 120-man maniples becoming six 80-man centuries?
posted by Duncan B Campbell
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#42
Quote:Hi Steven,
To be honest, it almost sounds too good to be true. But since I'd like to make up my mind about that myself, I'd be really interested in reading your book. Hope you find a publisher soon. Maybe Pen & Sword is interested? Phil Sidnell, their ancients editor, is here on the forum.

Did someone mention my name?

I've come late to this thread and tried just skimmed through it so a lot of it has gone over my head a bit. It is quite clear though that this work is going to stir up a lot of interest, and if written in a sufficiently accessible style could be well worth us (Pen & Sword) taking a look at. I know you said you had backers if you decide to self publish and I wish you every success if you go down that route, but if you want a professional military-specialist publishing house of long-standing to take a look, drop me a private message and we can talk about it.

As for 'naming and shaming' specific historians who have transmitted misconceptions, a bit of this is fine and sometimes hard to avoid if you want to say something revolutionary, but as an editor, I would want it couched in respectful terms. After all, those are probably the very books that gave you the basic interest and understanding of the subject that led you on your path to be studying this now. I also wouldn't want it to take up too much of the book, it scares off a lot of the more general readers. The committed specialists are going to buy the book anyway.

Just one very little contribution to the discussion - and it is not often I find myself coming back to express doubt at the erudite Mr McDonnell-Staff - but when he pointed out that Nero's force of 6000 at the Metaurus was a picked force selected from his army and therefore not evidence for a 6000 man legion, I just thought you still have to ask why he picked that number of men. If you were going to let someone pick the best troops, you are still likely to set them a certain logical number, a number that already has some place in your organisation. If you are already operating in multiples of 6000, it would make sense to give him 6000, not 5,200 for example.

Phil Sidnell Smile



[/quote]
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#43
We should not get too hung up on numbers.
Quote:If you were going to let someone pick the best troops, you are still likely to set them a certain logical number, a number that already has some place in your organisation. If you are already operating in multiples of 6000, it would make sense to give him 6000, not 5,200 for example.
Doubtless some 'fell by the wayside' on that epic march, and we are also told that Nero's army on the march was joined by many veterans and boys not yet called up, as volunteers, so the number was likely many more than 6,000 when he arrived !!
Still, Phil's point gives food for thought. If a legion at that time didn't number 6,000, the fact that 'picked forces' of just that number seem to crop up several times must surely mean the number had some significance.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#44
D. Campbell wrote: I'm just curious, Steven. How would you envisage your four 120-man maniples becoming six 80-man centuries?


Steven James
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#45
Quote:Hello Paul. The premise I have been following it to make sure the layman can clearly understand what is written. At present, and I say this respectfully, I am staying away from discussing anything with publishers as of now I am not prepared to enter into any negotiations (formal or informal). I have no idea what will happen down the road and I do not want to feel locked in. Plus not having a publishing commitment or a strict deadline to meet removes the stress feeling pushed which will surely affect my research. I am a painstaking researcher and I do cover a wide aspect of the primary sources in regard to hunting down the most minor detail.

I quite understand your position regarding publishers, no point hurrying it if you don't have to. At least know you know where you can reach one who will read it with interest if and when you are ready to look for a publisher. Good luck with it.

PHIL (not Paul!) Sidnell
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