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EUREKA - Roman army troops
#16
No zero, if I recall? what a concept....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#17
Cetainly, studying Roman proto-history (before 250 BC or so, compared to before 500 BC or so in Greece) is always tricky since we have several sources which seem detailed but were working largely from patriotic legend and family tradition (and from other historians who had used the same sources and embroidered them with their particular style of rhetoric). One has to be very careful to throw out just enough to leave to any scraps of historical truth. But if numbers from different sources in different places make a very consistent pattern, that would be evidence for their authenticity- especially if the same system continues into the historic period.

I'll be interested to see your book, Steven. It sounds like exciting work.
Nullis in verba

I left this forum around the beginning of 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value
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#18
Eureka! Small town in Montana, USA, near Canadian border..... 8)
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#19
Gaius Julius Caesar/ was Marcus/Byron Angel wrote: As for my neighbour, the lovely TV presenter/historian, well, Scotland is a bigger place than it appears on the map.

Vanessa lives in Aberdeen. Definitely a close neighbour.

D B Campbell wrote: But there's a limit to how many sources each of us can study, and we all exercise a certain amount of trust that giant intellects like Mommsen and Syme did not maliciously fabricate evidence.

I do not believe modern historians have “maliciously fabricate evidenceâ€
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#20
....this is all most interesting, Steven, and I sincerely hope you can get it published. I agree with almost all you have said about sources etc, and am guilty of repeatedly saying the source should be trusted unless proven wrong, and then only that the statement concerned is in error, not that the source is wrong as a whole.
However, the fact that one of Livy's major sources was Fabius Pictor is well known - no surprises there !
Nor is the fact that Rome's military was consistently based on 60 sub-units.
...and Duncan is right too, it is not only "moderns" who copy one another un-questioningly, the "ancients" are sometimes guilty of it too !

A mathematical consistency however, would be a most impressive thing !!

BTW, you are partially right about the number 'zero'. It is generally accepted that it was the invention of moslem arabic mathematicians from Islamic Spain - but that is merely how Europeans came to acquire the concept. 'zero' as a place holder e.g '101', as opposed to '11' was used in Babylonian accounting in Seleucid times and possibly earlier, and the Mayans and Indian astronomers may also have discovered the concept long before Arabs and Europeans........
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#21
Also, Steven, I'd tone down the railing against 'historians'. Not only are there quite a number of those vicious creatures on RAT, one might say you're one yourself. :wink:
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#22
...on re -reading your earlier posts, I came across a possible small error.......
Quote:In book XXIV 13, in 214 BC, Marcellus sends 6000 foot and 300 cavalry to Nola. In 211 BC, at Capua (Livy XXVI 17), Gaius Nero was assigned a force of 6000 infantry and 300 cavalry. In 207 BC Livy (XXVII 43), Gaius Nero marched with a force of 6000 infantry and 1000 cavalry, to northern Italy.

You seem to be implying that these are evidence for 6,000 man 'legions' but Gaius Nero's force was a picked force from his army of his fittest troops. "....From his whole force, Roman and Allied, he selected the best men, 6,000 foot and 1,000 horse.." - Livy.
In other words a composite force from his entire army, not a 'legion', and certainly not evidence of the strength of legions at this time.
Similarly, Marcellus force of 6,000 'foot' and '300'horse' sent to Nola is almost certainly another example of a 'picked force', not a legion (else Livy would have said 'legion').
Gaius Nero's army sent to the relief of Spain after the deaths of the two elder Scipio's is also a 'picked force' "...Senate passed a decree assigning to Gaius Nero a force of 6,000 foot and 300 horse, to be chosen by himself from the two legions he had at Capua, and an equal number of infantry together with 800 cavalry from the Allies of the Latin confederacy. Nero embarked these troops at Puteoli for Spain..." - Livy.

Shipping space, and urgency were clearly the factors here - Nero couldn't embark his entire consular army.

Clearly, none of these examples are evidence for a 6,000 man legion.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#23
Paul McDonnell wrote:....this is all most interesting, Steven, and I sincerely hope you can get it published.

There are financial backers who want to bankroll the project if I go ahead myself. I spent two years studying electronic layout and publishing, including budgeting, so I do know something if I go down the do-it- yourself road. Finding a major distributor is relatively easy.

Steven James
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#24
Quote:Jasper wrote: Also, Steven, I'd tone down the railing against 'historians'. Not only are there quite a number of those vicious creatures on RAT, one might say you're one yourself.
Stephen, I was purely referring to your railing on the forum. Some of your postings have a very accusatory tone with generalizations aimed at ancient historians. I was simply asking you to tone that down. Besides, since you are evidently writing history, academically trained to do so or not, that makes you in many eyes a historian yourself. :wink:
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#25
Quote:Gaius Julius Caesar/ was Marcus/Byron Angel wrote: As for my neighbour, the lovely TV presenter/historian, well, Scotland is a bigger place than it appears on the map.

Vanessa lives in Aberdeen. Definitely a close neighbour.

Ahhhh! Hmmmm, is she single? Good looking? My age, ie between 18 and 30? :lol: :lol:

But seriously, that is interesting information Steve. Secret society in aberdeen!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#26
Quote:Ahhhh! Hmmmm, is she single? Good looking? My age, ie between 18 and 30?

...ooooh! you shallow creature, you ! :wink:
Are you not more concerned with her lofty intellect? Her interests in matters historical ?
Quote:My age, ie between 18 and 30?

Errr...rr, Byron, don't look now, but the personal details under your avatar are a bit of a giveaway.......... Smile D lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#27
Ah, Steven, now you are touching on a subject close to my heart ! :wink:
I have a deep and abiding interest in all things to do with Hannibal ( arguably History's greatest ever Military Commander ) and Scipio Africanus, his nemesis, and my namesake (my full name is McDonnell-Staff-- Scipio=Staff).

I hope we don't end up getting too "anorak" in this discussion, for the general membership of RAT, some of whose eyes are probably glazing over already on the subject of numbers in a Roman Lagion. This is all the more so, when it is remembered we are talking theoretical/ideal numbers.
In the real world numbers fluctuated daily, due to a myriad of factors including sickness, desertion, detachments etc etc
( digression: If the Roman Army was so disciplined, why do we constantly hear of Roman desertions, despite the stringent penalties? Almost every peace treaty/truce we hear about includes ' the handover of all deserters' ! )
[quote]What Dionysius has done is he has added Pyrrhus’ order of battle to the Roman order of battle and arrived at a Roman army of “over 70,000 infantry and 8,000 cavalry.â€
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#28
Sorry about the lateness in replying Paul. :oops: I have been busy writing and further number crunching the tribal organisation.

Steven James
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#29
Good to see that you are still out there and working hard, Steven ! You are right to limit what you are doing, else it will just grow and grow and you will never finish ! Sad
Your work sounds extremely interesting, and I for one eagerly await publication.
Are you able to give an approximate time estimate ?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#30
Quote:, and interestingly, after Pynda it is the final curtain close on the triarii.
Is that an indication that the triarii really did fight as a phalanx? After Pydna could the Romans have decided the phalanx was completely obsolete and far too vulnerable to continue with?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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