04-03-2009, 01:18 PM
Paul wrote:
>....I think that must be a rather dubious proposition at best. The 'common opinion' is
>that phalanx/Hoplite warfare was introduced to Greece in the 8C. BC, following the
>introduction of the 'Argive' aspis, though some revisionists have suggested a date as
>recent as the 7C.BC. Originally, the Hoplites seem to have used two dual-purpose
>throwing/thrusting spears (longche), which was replaced by the 'Great Spear' (dory).
>Certainly 'full blown' Phalanx warfare in the classic sense is shown on the Chigi vase of
>c. 650 BC, which means that any 'revolution' was complete by then. The men carry
>aspides, a single spear (dory) which they grasp to thrust, though spears with throwing
>loops in pairs are shown propped up in an arming scene.
That depends on how you look at it. The Chigi vase (which could be as late as 625 BCE) can easily be argued as showing nothing that isn't consistent with Homeric/Heroic combat. Homer himself, in describing the Myrmidions saving themselves from raging Hector by forming up in close order and keeping him off with a hedge of spears and a wall of shields shows that small groups of men would form closely to better protect themselves. The groups men depicted on the Chigi vase could be nothing more than that.
In fact, at the point where the two groups are fighting the left hand group may not be formed in a straight line. While there are four heads and shields, there are ten legs, so somebody's out of place
And this is the side with the aulos player, who is supposedly keeping them in order.
You have to make a completely unsubstantiated leap of faith to argue that they depict entire phalanxes marching in step, a leap not supported by materials contemporary to the vase.
Its also worth noting that the vase also depicts cavalry, charioteers, and heroic single combat in the second band, which would seem to dilute its value as an early poster child for the hoplite revolution.
>They are in formed lines and run into battle together in step ( incidently throwing doubt
>on the Athenian claim to be the first to do so at Marathon).
The Chigi vase shows groups running to catch up with other groups already in combat. Are they rear ranks, or other groups which are running up to form a front in a syncopated fashion? There are figures still arming up, which would further tend to support an interpretation of groups coming into battle in a erratic fashion.
This in now way throws doubt on Herodotus' (who its worth noting wasn't an Athenian) statement:
"When they had been set in order and the sacrifices were favorable, the Athenians were sent forth and charged the foreigners at a run. The space between the armies was no less than eight stadia. The Persians saw them running to attack and prepared to receive them, thinking the Athenians absolutely crazy, since they saw how few of them there were and that they ran up so fast without either cavalry or archers. So the foreigners imagined, but when the Athenians all together fell upon the foreigners they fought in a way worthy of record. These are the first Hellenes whom we know of to use running against the enemy. They are also the first to endure looking at Median dress and men wearing it, for up until then just hearing the name of the Medes caused the Hellenes to panic. "
The Athenians ran into contact, something not shown in the Chigi vase, as the figures in contact are standing and fighting, and they are not tightly packed as they would be if they charged into contact. There is also very good reason for standing the same way. Behind a shield your shield side leg can be protected by the shield, so it leads, your off leg, which cannot readily be protected by the shield, must be tucked back safely out of reach. So I have a hard time buying the argument that they must have gotten there by marching in step.
So, as charging into contact is a new thing in 490, and is later a staple of hoplite combat, I'd say i'm not outside the box in saying the hoplite revolution is still underway in 490 BCE.
Have fun,
Cole
>....I think that must be a rather dubious proposition at best. The 'common opinion' is
>that phalanx/Hoplite warfare was introduced to Greece in the 8C. BC, following the
>introduction of the 'Argive' aspis, though some revisionists have suggested a date as
>recent as the 7C.BC. Originally, the Hoplites seem to have used two dual-purpose
>throwing/thrusting spears (longche), which was replaced by the 'Great Spear' (dory).
>Certainly 'full blown' Phalanx warfare in the classic sense is shown on the Chigi vase of
>c. 650 BC, which means that any 'revolution' was complete by then. The men carry
>aspides, a single spear (dory) which they grasp to thrust, though spears with throwing
>loops in pairs are shown propped up in an arming scene.
That depends on how you look at it. The Chigi vase (which could be as late as 625 BCE) can easily be argued as showing nothing that isn't consistent with Homeric/Heroic combat. Homer himself, in describing the Myrmidions saving themselves from raging Hector by forming up in close order and keeping him off with a hedge of spears and a wall of shields shows that small groups of men would form closely to better protect themselves. The groups men depicted on the Chigi vase could be nothing more than that.
In fact, at the point where the two groups are fighting the left hand group may not be formed in a straight line. While there are four heads and shields, there are ten legs, so somebody's out of place
And this is the side with the aulos player, who is supposedly keeping them in order.You have to make a completely unsubstantiated leap of faith to argue that they depict entire phalanxes marching in step, a leap not supported by materials contemporary to the vase.
Its also worth noting that the vase also depicts cavalry, charioteers, and heroic single combat in the second band, which would seem to dilute its value as an early poster child for the hoplite revolution.
>They are in formed lines and run into battle together in step ( incidently throwing doubt
>on the Athenian claim to be the first to do so at Marathon).
The Chigi vase shows groups running to catch up with other groups already in combat. Are they rear ranks, or other groups which are running up to form a front in a syncopated fashion? There are figures still arming up, which would further tend to support an interpretation of groups coming into battle in a erratic fashion.
This in now way throws doubt on Herodotus' (who its worth noting wasn't an Athenian) statement:
"When they had been set in order and the sacrifices were favorable, the Athenians were sent forth and charged the foreigners at a run. The space between the armies was no less than eight stadia. The Persians saw them running to attack and prepared to receive them, thinking the Athenians absolutely crazy, since they saw how few of them there were and that they ran up so fast without either cavalry or archers. So the foreigners imagined, but when the Athenians all together fell upon the foreigners they fought in a way worthy of record. These are the first Hellenes whom we know of to use running against the enemy. They are also the first to endure looking at Median dress and men wearing it, for up until then just hearing the name of the Medes caused the Hellenes to panic. "
The Athenians ran into contact, something not shown in the Chigi vase, as the figures in contact are standing and fighting, and they are not tightly packed as they would be if they charged into contact. There is also very good reason for standing the same way. Behind a shield your shield side leg can be protected by the shield, so it leads, your off leg, which cannot readily be protected by the shield, must be tucked back safely out of reach. So I have a hard time buying the argument that they must have gotten there by marching in step.
So, as charging into contact is a new thing in 490, and is later a staple of hoplite combat, I'd say i'm not outside the box in saying the hoplite revolution is still underway in 490 BCE.
Have fun,
Cole
Cole
