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Rank Structure of the Late Roman Legions
#1
Hi all,

Last thread Smile

Unlike the earlier Republican or Imperial legions, I can't seem to get a proper grasp of exactly what the rank structure of the Late Roman legion was.

1) What was the rank and unit structure of the Late Roman Legions? I've very little, almost no, idea of how Late Legions operated. From the lowest Legionary to the commander of legions, none at all. Did it differentiate from Comitatus to Limitatensis legions? How were cavalry involved? How many troopers made up a cavalry vexellation? What was its ranking structure?

It appears to get rather vague with the breakup of infantry and cavalry into distinct units, separate from one another. Diocletian, and later Constantine's, reforms in the military added a swath of new ranks that I simply can't get a grasp of. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Scott.
"What else then, is all of history, but the praise of Rome?" - Petrarch

~~~

A. Flavius (Scott)
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#2
If I'm not mistaken, Late Roman cavalry units were not connected to the legions in the same way early cavalry alae were. They formed their own units and were much more "regular" whereas earlier they were part of the legion, and generally from Rome's allies, i.e. the Gauls.

There were a few posts on these topics, I'll post them as I find them for you, or you can search the forums yourself.
"Marcus Hortensius Castus"
or, to those interested,
"Kyle Horton"

formerly Horton III
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#3
Kyle is right, we have often posted on that topic. It seems a shame to do that all over again.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#4
Hello A Flavius,

I have write a small "essai" to the complicated late military rank structure of legion. First, this writing is false but i wish to go on a right perception...

the link: http://111935.aceboard.fr/111935-542-55 ... itaire.htm
Paulus Claudius Damianus Marcellinus / Damien Deryckère.

<a class="postlink" href="http://monsite.orange.fr/lesherculiani/index.jhtml">http://monsite.orange.fr/lesherculiani/index.jhtml

[Image: bandeau2008miniyi4.jpg]

Nouveau forum de l\'Antiquité Tardive: <a class="postlink" href="http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/index.php">http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/index.php
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#5
Hello all,

Thank you all for the information. I have tried searching the boards for 'Late Roman Ranks' but whilst there is a plethora of information, none of it appears to be what I'm looking for. If anyone does have the link to a past discussion on Late Roman ranks I would be grateful for the link Smile

Cheers,

Scott.
"What else then, is all of history, but the praise of Rome?" - Petrarch

~~~

A. Flavius (Scott)
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#6
So, In French:

http://111935.aceboard.fr/111935-542-55 ... itaire.htm
Paulus Claudius Damianus Marcellinus / Damien Deryckère.

<a class="postlink" href="http://monsite.orange.fr/lesherculiani/index.jhtml">http://monsite.orange.fr/lesherculiani/index.jhtml

[Image: bandeau2008miniyi4.jpg]

Nouveau forum de l\'Antiquité Tardive: <a class="postlink" href="http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/index.php">http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/index.php
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#7
Salve Scott,
Sorry I didn't post the links as promised. I usually am on here at work, so unfortunatley it has to come second tier if something comes up!

If you couldn't find anything on it here, go to some of the late Roman reenacting sites (such as comitatus) and email the contact. I'm sure that they will know, or at least tell you A.) where to find the info, or B.) pass the question along to someone who does know. The good thing about Roman Army living history is that there's a ton of networking I've observed, so it shouldn't take long for you to get a reply! Hope this helps,

Castus
"Marcus Hortensius Castus"
or, to those interested,
"Kyle Horton"

formerly Horton III
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#8
Start here:

Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores

Contubernium - Exactly How Many?

Late Roman Army (Fifth century)

Cavalry proportion and the numbers in late Roman army
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#9
Hello all,

I think I have it. I've gone through the links you gave me Vortigern, and I've also managed to get my hands on a copy of Hugh Elton's Warfare in Roman Europe AD 350-425. They've both been rather illuminating, especially Elton's chapters on recruitment and training.

So, provided I've read these properly, this should be the rank structure of the various Roman armies within the specified time frame. Tell me if I'm off.

The Comitatensis were orgainsed around the concept of a legion or auxilia for infantry regiments, and vexillationes for cavalry regiments. Numerii seems to something of a catch-all phrase to describe any body of soldiers, at least from what I can tell.

The size of the infantry regiments (legiones or auxilia) appears to top at roughly 1200, with 600 for cavalry vexillationes. Although Elton think it could have been even less.

Quote:THe evidence for the size of these units is limited. What there is suggests tat establishments for vexillationes were c.600 strong, and establishments for auxilia and legiones c.1200. On the other hand, many recorded strengths were somewhat lower: c.400 for cavalry and c.800 for infantry regiments might have been normal. There appear to have been no major changes in unit sizes between 350 and 425.

So it would appear that the ratio of cavalry to infantry seems to have been 1:2.

These regiments appear to have been commanded by a tribune, regardless of whether they were infantry or cavalry. Elton states they were also at times referred to as praepositus, a term I haven't been able to translate or anglisise let.

Elton goes on to claim that these regiments would often operate in pairs, forming a battalion under the command of a Comes. What he doesn't say is if it were possible for a Count to command a larger force, as in the case of the Count of the Saxon Shore.

Barbarian foederati are mentioned, but Elton doesn't seem to know just how large foederati attachments to Roman brigades would have been.

The Limitanei appear to have possessed a wider array of troops due to their static nature. Infantry regiments are broken up into legiones and cohortes, whilst alae and equites formed the norm for cavalry.

Considering that Limitanei were spread over a certain area, it seems to be hard to pin down their exact numbers. Elton claims that their numbers averaged around c.480-c.750.

Quote:As with the comitatenses it is difficult to estimate unit sizes. in the third century cohortes and alae had a nominal establishment of 480, though John Lydus in the sixth century records alae as 600. The few military units recorded in the Notitia may have been around 750 strong, as in the third century. Border equites and auxilia were probably the some size as cohortes and alae. Legiones were often broken up into detachments for garrisoning a province, in some cases as many as six from the same legion. These varied in size and had up to five cohorts. Full-strength legions may have had the same strength as field army legions. If they were this small, some of these detachments would have been very small indeed. These guesses are established strength and the real strengths would have been somewhat lower.

Now I assume the same rank structure of Tribunes and Counts applies here as well.

As I understand it, the upper echelons of the Roman military worked as thus;

Migister militum commanded Duces within his diocese. The Duces in turn commanded Comes in their individual provinces.

Now it's the lower ranks that get me. Military Tribunes (apparently vastly different from the Tribunes of the Early Empire) were under the command of Comes. There would apparently be one tribune per regiments, or two per brigade with one obviously being senior. But what comes under Tribunes? I should have amended my question earlier to ask what were the enlisted ranks of the Roman legions. This is what I'm interested in but can't seem to find.

Any help would be my appreciated.

Cheers,

Scott.
"What else then, is all of history, but the praise of Rome?" - Petrarch

~~~

A. Flavius (Scott)
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#10
Quote: The Comitatensis were orgainsed around the concept of a legion or auxilia for infantry regiments, and vexillationes for cavalry regiments. Numerii seems to something of a catch-all phrase to describe any body of soldiers, at least from what I can tell.
That's ComitatensEs.
Like I said, vexillationes could also have been smaller parts of infantry formations.
Comitatenses were the units with the most status, most of them belonging to field armies.
Limitanei were mostly border troops (NOT militia or farmer-soldiers) whose job it was to hold out until the field army arrived, or defeat raids and keep the peace on the border.

Quote: So it would appear that the ratio of cavalry to infantry seems to have been 1:2.
Or less.

Quote: Elton goes on to claim that these regiments would often operate in pairs, forming a battalion under the command of a Comes. What he doesn't say is if it were possible for a Count to command a larger force, as in the case of the Count of the Saxon Shore.
Which is indeed the case.

Quote: Barbarian foederati are mentioned, but Elton doesn't seem to know just how large foederati attachments to Roman brigades would have been.
They would not, depending on numbers they mostly operated in units separate from the regular army, often under their own leaders.

Quote: As I understand it, the upper echelons of the Roman military worked as thus;
Migister militum commanded Duces within his diocese. The Duces in turn commanded Comes in their individual provinces.
No, that's incorrect.
The magister (utrisque) militum was the chief commander of the forces,
Earlier, the men below hiom would be the
magister peditum (general of the infffantry) and the
magister equitum (general of the cavalry), but that difference seems to have vanished around the late 4th century.
below them came regional commanders, the
magister militum per (diocese or province X or Y).
below them came the rional commanders, Comites and Duces.
A Comes always commanded a field army and was hence higher in status than a Dux.
A Comes, however could, like a Dux, also command a regional army group, indeed like The Count of the saxon Shore or the Duke of Britain (who commanded the region of Hadrian's Wall).

Here is a good list of the ranks below them: http://www.geocities.com/thebatavi/lraranks.htm
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#11
Hello,

Thanks for the response Vortigern. It' good to finally get a grasp of the enlisted ranks. However there are some ranks like Senator and Vicarius that I thought were civilian ranks, and had nothing to do with the military?
"What else then, is all of history, but the praise of Rome?" - Petrarch

~~~

A. Flavius (Scott)
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#12
The ranks of the Late Roman army are not fully understood.

However, when the Medieval writer Geoffrey of Monmouth writes that 'Arthur fights in Gaul against the Romans and captures many senators', that suddenly makes sense...
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#13
Quote:So it would appear that the ratio of cavalry to infantry seems to have been 1:2.
Careful, Scott. The ratio of cavalry unit-size to infantry unit-size might be 1:2, but there were still more infantry units than cavalry units.
For example, at Strasbourg in AD 357, Julian fielded around 10,000 infantry and only 3,000 cavalry.

Quote:... praepositus, a term I haven't been able to translate or anglisise let.
Praepositus simply means "one who has been placed in charge". It wasn't actually a rank -- legionary centurions were often "placed in charge" of auxiliary units -- but more of a function. Hence, a man with the rank of tribune could be described as the praepositus of his unit.

Quote:
H. Elton, ibid, p. 99-100:15s3qd0l Wrote:As with the comitatenses it is difficult to estimate unit sizes. in the third century cohortes and alae had a nominal establishment of 480, though John Lydus in the sixth century records alae as 600. The few military units recorded in the Notitia may have been around 750 strong, as in the third century. Border equites and auxilia were probably the some size as cohortes and alae ...

You've got a crucial typo in your quote. Elton is referring to milliary units, which were nominally 1000-strong. He makes the point that their normal complement may have fallen to 750.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#14
Quote:Now it's the lower ranks that get me. ... I should have amended my question earlier to ask what were the enlisted ranks of the Roman legions. This is what I'm interested in but can't seem to find.
A good place to start for many Late Roman questions is A.H.M. Jones, [amazon]The Later Roman Empire 284-602[/amazon]. Although published in 1964, it is still valuable for many topics, and includes a chapter on the army.
Quote:... a private (pedes) or trooper (eques) might in due course be promoted to the grade of semissalis and then to non-commissioned rank. ... In the new types of formation dating from the third and fourth centuries, the vexillations and the auxilia and the scholae, the grades were ... in ascending order circitor, biarchus, centenarius, ducenarius, senator, primicerius.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#15
I just received a copy of Philip Rance's latest article on this:

Rance, Philip (2007b): Campidoctores Vicarii vel Tribuni: The Senior Regimantal Officers of the Late Roman Army and the Rise of the Campidoctor, in: Ariel S. Lewin and Pietra Pellegrini (eds.) (2007): The Late Roman Army in the Near East from Diocletian to the Arab Conquest, pp. 395-409.

Rance not only discusses unit strengths, but also posssible differences in rank structures between the 'old-style' units and the 'new model' units created from Diocleatian onwards. Again Rance provides material for the continuation of developments of the Roman army between the 3rd and 7th centuries.
Also a very interesting discussion about differences ranks and pay grades, and ranks and functions.

VERY interesting article, for the rank structure of the Roman army between say 230 and 640.

Send me a PM with your email address.... :wink:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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