Late Roman Kit Construction

[Marcus Hortensius Castus]

Salve,
For those who don't know, I am putting on a small series of Ancient History camps for some kids here in New Mexico.

I have almost completed their Greek Kits, and we are going to have that phase of the camp in a few weeks. Pictures will be in the Greek Section of RAT at some point.

However, as I've completed that, I am about to begin putting together their Roman kits. The consensus was late Roman period, and so I have begun making a slew of Tunics and shields. For our "toned down" purpose (It was simply too expensive to put all the kids in 100% accurate kits) the Greek Spears I have constructed will suffice for their late Roman kits.

However, I need to ask a few questions in regards to Late Roman Scuta and Ridge Helms.

What were the dimensions of the late Roman shields? Were they round or slightly oval, and was there any curve at all on the infantry shields?

NEXT, does anyone know where I can find a pattern for late Roman Ridge Helms? I am fairly confident I can construct them much cheaper than buying them, and I have the tools availible to do both the metal work and the leatherwork.

Any other tips and pointers to making a decent late Roman Impression would be very appreciated. Thanks,

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

The Roman Ridge Helmets were definitely not round, they are much more of an egg/oval shape.

I’m sorry I don’t have any patterns but, below ware three originals.

I would suggest that you look most strongly at the originals and base your design mainly on those.




This one is more of a Spangenhelm




Here’s another original: [url:wfrwdnad]http://www.ugr.es/~masterarqueologia/ArqyT/Imagenes/Imags3/Perez/Maestr15.jpg[/url]

[Robert Vermaat]

What were the dimensions of the late Roman shields? Were they round or slightly oval, and was there any curve at all on the infantry shields?

Hi Kyle,

Here's my 'how-to' article on late Roman shields, the flat ones. Dished ones are more correct, but flat one will do very well for your purpose:

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/makescutum.htm

[Marcus Hortensius Castus]

Thanks Antonivs. The one in the link is the one I'm looking to recreate (for now.) I just somehow need to get a way to copy the pattern on paper. I guess I will trial and error paper patterns till I get a two piece dome that looks good shapewise. It appears the ridge holds the halves together via rivets. So I guess, without having to take one apart, that the halves go together, a leather band is sewn on via what appears to be little holes poked in the lower edges of the helm all the way around the bowl; The same method is used on the cheek guards and neck piece, which are then sewn on leather to leather. The ridge then would probably be installed before the leather, then.

EDIT: Thanks Robert. That's exactly what I needed in that department.

[Crispvs]

Ahah! In asking about whether the shields should be round or oval, you are probably about to cause our two leading late Roman experts (Robert and Aitor) to start an impeccably well backed up, hard fought fight which may last for some pages with no-one ending up the winner. Where tunic colour is the issue which gets early imperial Roman re-enactors at each others' throats, shield shape fills that role for the late Romans. If I were you I would just pick whichever shape you prefer and go with it.

For ridge helmets, the simplest type to do would almost certainly be the Intercissa type, which you might be able to fake up with a plastic or light metal hemisphere which is squashed to a slight oval and then trimmed slightly. You would then have to work out how to produce the ridge which in reality would join the two halves of the helmet together. A piece of garden hose cut in half lengthways might work, as long as it had a smooth surface. Cheek guards and neck guards could probably be cut out of plastic and then pressed into shape over a heated former.

These pictures should give you an idea of the shape you should be aiming for.

http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... &cPath=1_7

Of course, if you want to do it properly and equip your young soldiers with steel helmets, unless you are a talented and prolific metal smith yourself, you would need to get them specially made for you, which could cost quite a bit. My suggestion is simply the easiest way I could think of to get the right look for a child's mock up.

Crispvs

[Crispvs]

Whoops! it took me so long to finish writing that that everyone else got in there before me. :oops:

Incidentally, the jury is still out on whether the first helmet Anthony posted up is genuine or not. The second one, the example from Deurne, is certainly the right period but I think too difficult to make easily, whilst the third, the Sutton Hoo helmet, is certaily derived from the late Roman ridge helmets but is rather late for what you want. I agree that the Augst (or is it Worms - I always confuse the two) is what you want. I was looking for a picture of one of them to post up or link to but could not find a suitable image in a hurry.

Crispvs

[Marcus Hortensius Castus]

Thanks Crispvs. I certainly didn't want to start a debate up again! The shields will certainly be flat for the youngsters, and maybe a 50/50 of round and oval :wink: !

As far as the helms, thanks for that info. For myself I'd like to put on as good an impression as possible; for the youngsters, the plastic or light metal bowl will work wonderfully. I'm sure some rubber tubing, glue, and boiling water will make some delightful helms.

Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate them.

[Robert Vermaat]

Ahah! In asking about whether the shields should be round or oval, you are probably about to cause our two leading late Roman experts (Robert and Aitor) to start an impeccably well backed up, hard fought fight which may last for some pages with no-one ending up the winner.

hardly. First of all, we both agreee it's not or/or, we agree that both existed, and that both were dished. We disagree only about some depictions nowadays. Besides, Aitor is away on leave of the forum so i claim victory - I have posession of the battlefield (for now)! :twisted:

For ridge helmets, the simplest type to do would almost certainly be the Intercissa type, which you might be able to fake up with a plastic or light metal hemisphere which is squashed to a slight oval and then trimmed slightly. You would then have to work out how to produce the ridge which in reality would join the two halves of the helmet together. A piece of garden hose cut in half lengthways might work, as long as it had a smooth surface. Cheek guards and neck guards could probably be cut out of plastic and then pressed into shape over a heated former.

Check this thread and this thread for a wide-ranging description and many pictures of these helmets.

[Robert Vermaat]

Incidentally, the jury is still out on whether the first helmet Anthony posted up is genuine or not.

I vote for it's authenticity though. If it's a fake it's made by an expert who must be on RAT!

[Robert Vermaat]

Thanks Crispvs. I certainly didn't want to start a debate up again! The shields will certainly be flat for the youngsters, and maybe a 50/50 of round and oval :wink: !

See my post above with the link to my article.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

This sounds like a fun project Kyle... don't forget to post photos!

BTW: does anyone have any photos of original late Ramon shields? Scooped, flat, or otherwise? Not drawings, perhaps old frescoes, sculptures, etc.

[Crispvs]

Robert,

Thanks for those links. I knew I had seen good pictures of Intercissa type helmets recently but could not put my finger on where. I suppose I should have used the RAT search rather than MSN search.

Crispvs

[Franklin]

Besides, Aitor is away on leave of the forum

I noticed Aitor hasn't been around of late. Did he get banished for naughty behavior?

[Marcus Hortensius Castus]

Salve!
Thanks for all the input guys. I will be sure to post photos after it's all said and done!

Robert, those links you've posted are invaluable. I'll be using those for sure as a guide.