Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Squamata and Plumata scales
#1
A while back I posted a question regarding roman brass. Dr. Bishop responded by mentioning that Low brass and Red brass are the modern brasses that most closely resemble Roman orichalcum in compostion; orichalcum used for segmentata parts (hinges and the like not the rivets where gilding bronze was probably used).

I was interested in making some scales out of brass and was wondering if Low brass and Red brass are good candidates for scales or are these metals too soft. If Roman brass is generally considered orichalcum then brass scales could have been from orichalcum:?: This would make low brass and red brass good candidates for scales :?:

If chainmail were made with links about 3mm diameter using either 20 gauge or 22 gauge brass wire in low or red brass, could these brass alloys after having to be annealed for working be strong enough to hold up against being hit with a sword or pulled apart (soft metal may come apart where the rivets are in the chainmail link :?: ). I know that 20 would be stronger than 22. If anyone has any input I would apprecaite it.

Also would the above red and low brass alloys be "more likely" than other copper alloys in chainmail or scale reconstruction.


Thanks in advance

Paolo
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
Reply
#2
Paolo,

Maybe this link can give you some relevant information concerning the experimental construction of a lorica plumata:

http://www.geocities.com/originaldu/Plumata/Lorica.htm

Personally I could not tell you if the rings would be strong enough against being hit by a sword (especially because of the great amount of variables involved). Nonetheless you have to consider that the plumata not only provided protection through the use of the mail rings, but also through the partly overlapping scales. Moreover, often the strength of riveted rings is underestimated, although it depends on many factors (material, quality of the riveting, etc). It is not uncommon to see that even though the ring itself is broken by some inflicted damage, that the riveted part of ring is still intact.

I hope I could be of some help.

Best wishes,

Martijn
Reply
#3
While I applaud them for taking the time to do a project like this, the final product does not resemble the originals nearly as closely as they insinuate it does.

In reality, based on some preliminary findings resulting from some experimental reconstructions, the plumata may not have been as strong as previously thought. At least the pieces made with brass wire that is. The process used to create the riveted brass links would have made the links rather weak in spite of their being riveted.
Reply
#4
Erik is quite right about pointing out that that the final product does not resemble the originals on all points; that is why I used the word experimental. For example, the vertical rows of scales in the reconstruction overlap. This does not seem the case in actual specimens; horizontal scales seem to be placed next to each other, while the vertical rows of scale do overlap.

Erik, you mention some preliminary findings resulting from experimental reconstructions that indicate that the plumata may not have been as strong as previously thought. Can you tell something more about these findings? When were these experiments done, under which circumstances, by who, and are they published or to be found on the internet?

With kind regards,

Martijn
Reply
#5
Martijn,

My comments about the strength of the plumata are based on a couple sample reconstructions I have made based on the Newstead piece. The metal the Newstead piece is made out of makes it very flimsy due to the softness of the links. The scales are what makes this a viable armour because they are made stronger by the manufacturing process used to create them whereas the mail links are made weaker.

In order for the mail links to be pierced and riveted they need to be softened. After softening they can't be hardened again, which is why they tend to be weak. Now, if the mail was made from iron it would be much stronger.
Reply
#6
I tried making a few examples myself and never found it necessary to soften the brass Erik- the only issue I encountered was that since I had only a tiny punch to use on a hardwood block, I just managed to hit it a bit too hard and tore through the edge. But those that worked because the force was sufficient but not excessive, worked fine. Why do you feel annealing is necessary?
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#7
Because I felt the look was not the same if the links were not softened first. Also, splitting was a problem when the links weren't softened.
Reply
#8
Erik,

Thank you for your explanation.

If I understand correctly, copper alloy plumata scales are hardened because of the manner in which they are worked. I guess you refer to the process of crimping the scales to obtain the medial ridge that will harden it. While preparing a copper alloy ring for riveting it must be annealed and thus becomes softer. Is annealing absolutely necessary, or does this depend, for example, on the type of copper alloy used?

Regards,

Martijn
Reply
#9
Martijn,

The medial ridge does not in itself harden the scale, rather it merely stiffens it a bit. The scale itself may have been hammered a bit after the holes were pierced into it thereby hardening it somewhat. The riveted mail links on the other hand would only be hardened at the riveted joint due to the nature of the rivet setting process. From the pieces I have seen, annealing is anabsolute necessity if you want to obtain a look identical to the originals. It is possible to do it without softening, but whether or not the finished product would look right is open for debate.
Reply
#10
Erik,

Excuse me for picking your brain so much, but as you have probably figured out I am quite crazy for the lorica plumata.

Quote:From the pieces I have seen, annealing is anabsolute necessity if you want to obtain a look identical to the originals.

Can you elaborate more on this original look and what are the difference between the annealed rings and the ones that aren’t annealed?

Thank you and with kind regards,

Martijn
Reply
#11
Quote:Because I felt the look was not the same if the links were not softened first. Also, splitting was a problem when the links weren't softened.

Erik- if my statement sounded harsh or condescending, I assure you it definitely wasn't meant that way and I apologize. :oops: I just meant to relay that I'd found half-hard 22ga wire seems to work, and that it'd save a lot of work not having to anneal the rings just to punch them Big Grin wink:
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Are these real roman lorica squamata scales ? Jose Lopez 10 3,577 12-16-2016, 07:44 AM
Last Post: Crispianus
  Masada and related squamata? scales Doc 1 1,556 11-07-2011, 04:57 AM
Last Post: Theodosius the Great
  Lorica squamata Scales Matt Lukes 6 2,408 05-14-2007, 08:06 AM
Last Post: Praefectusclassis

Forum Jump: