Spartan Armor

[geala]

I think it was a bit of both.

The economic stress of the long war should not be underestimated. The peroikoi and the heilotoi were affected also because they formed great parts of the Lakedaimonian armies.

But I think that the lightening of the equipment has also something to do with the changes in warfare you mentioned. The Spartans realised that the closed helmet and body armour were not essential to hoplite warfare. So the personal security of the single warrior was a bit neglected. It coincided wonderfully with economic needs.

Something similar happened in the dreadful era of the 30-years-war. After 1635 heavy armour disappeared quickly never to come again (until recently) although it was quite capable to protect the bearers against many of the used weapons.

[Zenodoros]

Whilst we have little or no evidence for the Persian Wars,( if anyone knows of some, please post it !)

I believe the Dodona Spartan* (if it is indeed a Spartan) statuette dates to about 490-480BC, so I would say that is a good enough source to suggest they were armoured during the Persian Wars.

*[size=75:2qivty6d]I don't have my resources here right now, so unfortunately that's the only picture of it I can find. [/size]

[Paullus Scipio]

There are a number of similar bronze statuettes of warriors like this, found in Messenia, Dodona Olympia and other places. Whilst it is uncertain if they are meant to represent Spartan Homioi or a deity such as Ares, they are thought to be of Lakonian origin.
However the style of helmet ( early Corinthian) the flanged cuirass, the style of tunic and the fact that foot guards are often shown all date these statuettes to circa 550 B.C. or earlier.
What is the source for thinking these are later, of the Persian War period ?
Is there some reason to think that, like other Greeks, they had not adopted the Tube-and-yoke thorax around 500 B.C. ? ( or that, as elsewhere in Greece, the panoply varied with individuals, some being unable to afford greaves or body armour ? )

[Zenodoros]

This is why I particularly mentioned the Dodona statuette rather than others. He does not have any of the 'additional' armour of the late archaic period. I don't see the flanged cuirass being an indication of the statue being made earlier as much as the Spartans keeping with older armour. I'm not saying that the statue was in fact made in 480 BC, but I think the general opinion from any source about it I've read states early 5th century BC, as opposed to during the 6th century like other statues.

There are other things that make me seriously doubt the Spartans were unarmoured in the Persian Wars, namely the intensity of phalanx warfare at the time rather than more dependence on flexibility later in the century, and the fact that the Spartans managed to last so long against archer opponents at Thermopylai.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dating is always problematic, but nowhere have I seen it suggested that the Dodona statuette is not contemporary with others of its type i.e. no later than 530 B.C. Even taken alone, everything about it points to the mid 6th century, not just the flanged cuirass - the helmet type, the archaic/heroic raised crest, the tunic etc.
Surely you are not suggesting Spartans, of all people, stayed with equipment that was 50-100 years out of date ? hock: Nothing we know about them suggests this - on the contrary, everything we know points to just the opposite.Nor do the sources, such as they are, suggest that Spartan Hoplites looked any different to other Greek contemporary Hoplites. To build a revloutionary idea on the basis of mis-dating one statue is hardly a good way to work up a hypothesis !! wink:
As to armour in the Persian wars and its effectiveness, see other posts, and if you can get hold of a copy, P.H. Blyth's thesis from the University of Reading,U.K., "The Effectiveness of Greek Armour against Persian Arrows" - a multi-disciplinary study, taking in history,physics,engineering and experimentation. Blyth provides a convincing account of the mechanics of Persian archery against Hopla panoply for all battles, including Thermopylae, without even needing to consider body armour, or lack of it, at all .

[Anonymous]

There are other things that make me seriously doubt the Spartans were unarmoured in the Persian Wars,

I don't think anyone has suggested that they were unarmoured in the Persian Wars, but in the Peloponnesian ones. Cartledge, in his book "The Spartans", describes the equipment he believes they would have had at Thermopylae. He insists, without giving any reason for it, that they would all have had shields completely faced in bronze, but leaves open the question of whether they wore bronze cuirasses or linothorakes.

Interestingly, in regard to this question, he also asserts that the Spartiates were NEVER totally equal in terms of their wealth, which strongly argues against their being uniformly equipped with the most expensive armour. We've been over this before, and you marshalled some good arguments, but I don't think they add up to enough for us to say that it was "most likely" that Spartans at Thermopylae wore the bronze cuirass, especially since opponents of this theory can also demonstrate sound counter-arguments.

[Zenodoros]

I wasn't trying to begin an argument about it, I do think the subject is completely open - obviously we can't be completely sure about everything about the Spartans because we've been given so little to work with, even in their classical era.

I will have a look out for Blyth's thesis, sounds like a very interesting read.

I suppose the idea of a fully bronze cuirassed Spartan army is similar to the more fantastical concept of the Thespian melanochitons - it sure seems impressive and viable at first, but there just isn't enough fact stacked up to make it anything other than shaky.

Reading some of your other posts I can tell you're leaps and bounds ahead of most people in the subject, so laudes to you, Paullus. :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I suspect this theory about Spartans not abandoning the bronze cuirass does not come from the statuettes mostly,but from the speculation that the bronze cuirass offers much better protection than linen,and that Spartans woyld be the first in wanting the best equipment.Both unprovable.
If the Spartans continued wearing bronze thoraxes into the classical times,we can safely guess that this would be muscled cuirasses,bell ones being abandoned after the first 5th century deceys.Now this is extraordinary!a whole army of 8.000-10.000 in muscled cuirasses is mad!And not one mentions that the Spartans were better and more signifficantly armoured than the rest of the Greeks.
Paul,maybe Cartledge falls in the same kind of thinking about the all bronze covered shields,or probably would speak about the majority of them,or making use of Xenophon's "Lakaidemonion Politeia" where he says that they polished their shields' bronze cover.
Khairete
Giannis

[DanM]

If my friends had the strength to stand up in a bronze cuirass, and the money to buy one, there wouldn't be a problem with having to wear the right cuirass. But I might figure out a way to muscle cardboard.

[DanM]

about the cuirass, Plan A- find a plastic cuirass
plan b- find a way to muscle the cardboard
plan c- get strong, and rich, then buy real cuirasses.
plan d- my friends and I exercise WAY too much, then paint out chests a bronze color.

[DanM]

now I just need tips for heavily under resourced reenactors

[hoplite14gr]

Laddie, just check the beginners section and simply refuse to get disappointed

Kind regards