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Imperial-Italic D helmet:question
#16
Rusty Myers said
Quote:If you want perfect, go custom. For the price, Deepeeka helms are very accurate and a great value. There is significant cost to redesign and such that deepeeka has absorbed with NO price increase to us, and we (your deepeeka suppliers) have already voiced complaints on the construction issues. I am sure they will get better. I am also sure they will never be A) Free or B) Perfect

Salve Rusty,

I honestly agree however; do keep in mind, the more Deepeeka betters their helmets and the more accurate they make them, the more helmets they sell…. At least to those of us who want accuracy anyways. So, it is a ‘you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours’ scenario it’s not like Deepeeka's doing for us and not seeing anything for their effort.

Anyways… Hey! Where’s my Deepeeka 3868N balteus I ordered back on July first?!?!?! :lol:
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#17
Having examined the Guttmann helmet first-hand (photos posted on the Legio VI Real Gear page), I have absolutely no doubts about its fundamental authenticity. There is a fair amount of conservation (read that "fill work") in the iron portions, but by and large it is original. I understand Mike Bishop's caveats: It's standard academic practice these days to cast doubt on any unprovenanced object in order to discourage "looting" (that is, unauthorized excavation and removal) of antiquities. Also, if the dimensions of the Mouse Helmet are "unwieldy," what about those of the original Neidermormter, which has a far deeper neckguard of similar breadth? Are both helmets then fake? Also, many other fragmentary finds show a strong similarity to the Italic H type, some of which are recorded in Robinson.

I agree with Peroni regarding the dating for the Italic D, Mainz and Krefeld variants. I believe they date from the very late first to the mid second century AD (ca. AD 90-140); the Neidermormter and Guttmann "mouse" helmets, I believe, are directly of this lineage and date from Antonine to early Severan times. I thus wear a Krefeld Italic D for my Hadrianic Centurio impression.

One positive note to the scholarly disagreement over dates is that reenactors of two different time periods can wear the Italic D variants and provide evidence to back it up!
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#18
Quote:Having examined the Guttmann helmet first-hand (photos posted on the Legio VI Real Gear page), I have absolutely no doubts about its fundamental authenticity. There is a fair amount of conservation (read that "fill work") in the iron portions, but by and large it is original.
More info please David. It's not good enough to come in and say "I've seen... ergo...".

Detail might convince.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#19
Quote:More info please David. It's not good enough to come in and say "I've seen... ergo...".

Detail might convince.

--The unrestored iron portions had the kind of corrosion, delamination, layering and coloration that I've seen on many indisputably authentic artifacts of reputedly similar age.

--The brass work was applied over the iron skull in a manner consistant with other Roman artifacts of similar construction (brass-over-iron).

--The brass overlay has light corrosion overall consistant with the "Tiber patina" found on many Roman brass coins and objects from riverine finds (as this helmet reportedly was).

--The beading, detailing and incising on the brass work was wholly consistant with other Roman artifacts I have handled, seen in museums and studied in published reports.

--Certain details of construction (the applied brass lambdas on the neck guard, for example) are supported by similar features on helmets found or properly reconstructed later than the publication of the Guttmann specimen (Krefeld).

--The incised inscription of the owner's name is consistant with numerous other examples and the name IVLI MANSVETI has the right "feel."

--The mouse-loaf motif is obscure, a little odd and thus "rings true" in my mind.

Taken together, the preponderance of all the above adds up to an authentic artifact. This is entirely separate from the close similarity to the Nierdermormter helmet and the Italic H fragments published in Robinson and elsewhere.

I'll add that I handle Greek and Celtic helmets quite often in the course of my work, and Roman ones rarely. Quite a few fakes and "pastiches" have been breathlessly shown to me. 90% of these were very quickly identified as NG after a few seconds or minutes of inspection. A few others (usually "pastiches" combining fragments of several helmets) took a little longer, but were not that difficult to detect on close examination. I won't go into detail on the telltale signs I look for-- I don't want any potential fakers to be tipped off (not that there are any in this audience...). Suffice it to say that virtually all the fakes I've encountered almost immediately strike the wrong chord in my gut. The Guttmann mouse helmet, on the other hand, hits all the right notes.

The dimensions are also not at all wacky; after all, Celer (Julian Dendy) was able to wear it with no real difficulty. It would seem to me to be a lot easier to wear than the much deeper Neidermormter specimen.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#20
Interesting stuff, thanks for that. I still think it's a wacky helmet - not in the bowl, but in the HUGE neck guard. Smile
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#21
Salve,

Have being with Flavius Crispus when he examined the helmet, I can fully agree with his assessment to the helmet's authenticity. Peter Connoly also viewed the helmet later and raised no quibbles.

The area of iron that had suffered the most damage was the neck guard and it had correspondingly being re-built using resin. The brass ornaments were much better preserved and were all original.

As to the dating of the Italic 'D', I personally believe it was roughly contemporary to the Italic 'C' which has been suggestively dated to 69AD by it's find context. The 'D' has a slightly deeper occiput so that could place it to a later date, though not by too far. The crest-holder and peak are both similar to the 'C' (and bizarrely enough to the Sisak Gallic 'F') which would imply an earlier date, but the applied decoration looks forward to the Guttman 'mouse' helmet.

Quite simply there is no definite answer, so anyone could convincingly wear the Italic 'D' for Neronian to Trajanic impressions. Though I personally feel that the helmet is more Neronian or Flavian, there is no reason why it shouldn't have survived in service for much longer. Just consider that there was a Monty discovered in a context dating from 69AD.

Vale,

Celer.
Marcus Antonius Celer/Julian Dendy.
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#22
Thanks for the back-up, Celer.

Man, that was a fun visit to Christie's that day! I can't thank you enough for inviting me along.

Have any other wonderful collections (or any more Guttmann material) come up to the block recently?
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#23
Salve Flavius,

Sorry, I'm out of the loop now, so I'll know as soon as the rest of you if anything else comes up. When are you next in the UK?

Celer.
Marcus Antonius Celer/Julian Dendy.
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