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LATIN
#31
Yup, that's one way. Another is spelling errors in inscriptions, where things were written as they were pronounced, e.g. bixit instead of vixit, indicating that the v and b were very close in pronounciation.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#32
bexillum?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#33
Greek is certainly helpful; however, there also were pronunciation changes in Greek appearing about 1 AD, evident from spelling errors. Thus, AI = E (as it was becoming the case in Latin as well); OI, H, EI, U = I; B was being pronounced as Latin V, and hence interchangeable with U in some words...
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#34
Quote:@geala:
Quote: So I would name a Kataphractos a "catapfract", which is much more similar to the "catafract" than the ugly "catapract".


"Catapract" might be ugly,but it's the right pronunciation!

Could you give me a hint when this rule was set and by whom? It must be relatively new research, I would be interested in a source. I hope it is not connected with the discussion 'Greek scholars about ancient Greek and roughly the rest of the world', which I don't want to start.

Edit: sry, the quote worked not as intended
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#35
Quote:So I would name a Kataphractos a "catapfract", which is much more similar to the "catafract" than the ugly "catapract".
Yes, I'm with you on this one, Wolfgang.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#36
Quote:bexillum?
In Russian, the B in "Bexillum" would be pronounced "Vexillum", although the other letters would of course be in cyrillic (I can't type that). AFAIK, the Russian alphabet is based on the Greek one (Orthodox Church, etc), I'm rambling.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#37
Also in the neapolitan dialect "b" is pronunced "v", maybe is that from "Magna Graecia"?

Vale,
TITVS/Daniele Sabatini

... Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget Gens Aurea mundo,
casta faue Lucina; tuus iam regnat Apollo ...


Vergilius, Bucolicae, ecloga IV, 4-10
[Image: PRIMANI_ban2.gif]
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#38
Quote:Another is spelling errors in inscriptions, where things were written as they were pronounced ...
In a paper entitled "Spoken Latin in Britain as evidenced in the inscriptions" (Britannia 2, 1971, 218-224 -- thanks for getting me a copy of this, Ross!), the late John Mann published what he hoped was a comprehensive listing of spelling peculiarities, which (he argued) might be indicative of provincial pronunciation.

He has examples of AE becoming E (e.g. prefectus for praefectus) and I becoming E (e.g. lebertus for libertus), but also E becoming AE (e.g. maemoria for memoria), E becoming I (e.g. equis for eques), U becoming I (e.g. monimentum for monumentum), and then E, I and U becoming O (e.g. Astores for Astures).
All very confusing! And some (or all) might simply be stonemason's errors.

Interestingly, in his list of consonants (e.g. Jasper's bita for vita), he has no examples of F changing, although TH has a tendency to become simply T (e.g. Tracum for Thracum, Mitras for Mithras).
(I can understand that transformation, but I'm not sure whether F becoming P -- getting back to Kai Teipel's catapract -- works the same way.)

One interesting phenomenon is the "dropped H": Ispani for Hispani, eres for heres, etc. Very London! Big Grin
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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#39
Quote: AE becoming E (e.g. prefectus for praefectus) and I becoming E (e.g. lebertus for libertus), but also E becoming AE...

Naturally - since AE was being pronounced as E, spelling errors went both ways; whether you write AE or E, it is still E.

In Greek manuscripts, which I worked with for several years, this was often the case, i.e, a scribe would write E instead of AI, and AI instead of E; U for B, and B for U, etc.
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#40
I just want to hint that we are Italian, English, German and ... in this discussion involved.

So, if someone writes "E" or "AE" we all pronunce it different in our languages.
Can we use phonetical writing here?

And please, what is "ugly" about "catapragt"?
Be aware of personal modern hearing emotions, you cannot compare this to the ancient understanding of pronunciation.
Ever heared the "click-language" in Africa, first impression are insects!?
Susanna

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.musica-romana.de">www.musica-romana.de

A Lyra is basically an instrument to accompaign pyromanic city destruction.
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#41
Quote:Can we use phonetical writing here?
Something like this?

http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
(comes with sound samples)
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#42
Quote:...
And please, what is "ugly" about "catapragt"?
Be aware of personal modern hearing emotions, you cannot compare this to the ancient understanding of pronunciation.
Ever heared the "click-language" in Africa, first impression are insects!?

What is seen as "ugly" often depends only on custom and education. I did not learn to pronounce "phi" as "p" (btw why is a "pi" around there also?) so it sounds ugly to me. :wink: Can you or someone else give me a hint to the evidence or school of thought connected with it?
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#43
This wiki article does a good job of discussing some of the irregularities of Ancient Greek pronounciation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching

There is also a good article of Greek phonology, although you have to be a linguist to understand some parts of it..

Hope it helps...
Michael Griffin
High School Teacher who knows Latin & Greek
felicior quam sus in stercu
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