LATIN

[petrinus]

first off i know i havent posted in a while, and i wish i could say the studies of antiquity had so consumed me i could not..... but in actualy it has been the most mundane and mediocre distractions imaginable, however i have some time again and renewed vigor! question,... ye learned men, scholars of old and most importantly...of latin

i seem to remember comming across in this book or that, a notation suggesting the "j" and "v" sounds were absent from latin, yet we have words and names like julius and janus, vino and viddi, can someone please square me away on this? please and thanks

also, need a recommend on the best text for learning latin, i have several old books and dictionaries but if there is the definitive work somewhere, i should like to know what it is and how it can be had. thanks again

lastly i promise to be be a better roman and write more

[Jona Lendering]

a notation suggesting the "j" and "v" sounds were absent from latin, yet we have words and names like julius and janus, vino and vidi, can someone please square me away on this?

Both are medieval inventions. In c.800, Charlemagne embarked upon a great project to copy ancient texts, and in order to prevent future mis-readings, the way the alphabet was written was revised as well.

At the same time, the pronunciation of Latin continued to change, and other languages -with other sounds- needed adaptations of the alphabet. At the end of the Middle Ages, the transformation was completed. (The difference between C and G is older and can already be found in ancient manuscripts.) This link is to an excellent website on paleography.

On a more personal note: I see you're occupation is "military" and that you are currently in Afghanistan. Of behalf of an Afghan friend, who was forced to leave his country during the Taliban regime, I say "thank you"; and I wish you and your comrades good luck.

[Susanna]

I try to give you a short "soundsystem" of spoken Latin:

"c" - is always pronunced as a "k", also before vocals
"g" - is always hard, no "ch" or "dsche"
"h" - spoken softly breathed
"ph" - softly breathed "p", no "f"
"s" - between vocals always voiceless, "causa" is spoken "caussa", not a soft "s" like in "rose"
"t" - is always hard, "natio" not "nazio"
"v" - is a half-vocal between "u" and "v", like French "oui" or English "well"

"ng" - is always"ng", not "nje"
"ae" - like German "ei"
"oe" - like "oj"

so the result is "Caesar" is pronunced as "kaissar", related to the German word for emperor "Kaiser"...

I hope it helps a little. :wink:

[sonic]

When at University we did a course on 'Latin for Beginners', using 'Teach Yourself Latin' by Gavin Betts. It's cheap, it's paperback, and it's available on Amazon etc.

Good Luck!

_______________________

Ian (Sonic) Hughes

[petrinus]

so julius and the roman god janus and january, what of them then as they predate the medieval transformations mentioned yet are spoken of by so many scholars as such, frustrating that they would not impart correctness to the masses"damn you history channel!" lol

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

so Iulius and the roman god Ianus and Ianuarius

and of course Iason too: [url:2pk92080]http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iason[/url]

Vale (uale),

[petrinus]

thanks everyone! how big a factor is latin at re enactments? im trying, wish i had a study group here or more time on my own, hard to be certa what is spoken correctly or structured right even ya know? grammar and technical language not my strength, retention once learned though, hell yeah, my pashtu and arabic i still remmber near all of it and ive learned a fair amount for no formal school, i had good and helpful interpreters though, wish i had a latin speaking asset just lingering about!

[Sean Manning]

The Latin i/j is tricky. Most of the time, including wherever it was at the start of a word and followed by a vowel, it was pronounced "y". Thus GUY-us YOO-li-us KAY-sar (which helps you see how the Germans got Kaiser and the Russians Tsar from the same word). However, there is also a long "i" pronouced "ee" (so G. Julius Caesar was a member of the YOO-li-ee family), and a short "i" like the one in "pin" or "pit."

Wheelock's Latin is the only basic textbook I have used. The publishers mine it for money by putting out a new edition every few years, so it is easy to get used.

[Paullus Scipio]

..the "C" and "G" were once interchangeable too as noted above, thus..
"Gaius Yulius Kaesar", not....
"Caius Julius Caesar".......phonetically.

[petrinus]

magnus gratis and such, and i shall do my best to pick up the book asap!

[Iulus]

"Gratias tibi ago", or just "gratias".

[Robert Vermaat]

So it's [kataPrakt], not [kataFrakt]. Ouch, that will take some getting used to...

[D B Campbell]

So it's [kataPrakt], not [kataFrakt].

Thank goodness cataphract is a Greek word! :wink:

[petrinus]

ya know.....if we'd only not stopped speaking latin, ....*sigh*

[Iulus]

@D B Campbell: So what?The pronunciation is the same...

Besides: the latin "r" was a dental.