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Scepticism about Vegetius\' analysis of the Late Roman Army?
#16
Quote: Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#17
Sean is definately right. Medievals were very fond of him. Fabrizzio in particular from Macchievelli's Art of War, forgive sp. Vegetius's suggestions made a lot more sense from the Medieval Period point of view than probably were relevant at the time he wrote. The reforms suggested really would have made a great difference in Medieval combat if it was possible to have them utilized. Its very interesting reading Fabrizzio's critique of Vegetius from a later, more military educated point of view.
Derek D. Estabrook
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#18
Medievals could use him, because what he wrote was essentially a military treatise, which is Ok to use if you don't mind that what is describes is to some extent hypothetical.

The trouble starts when you go only by the details. For instance, Vegetius describes the pilum and the successors (I.20 & II.15), but he omits the hasta.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#19
Flavius Vegetius Renatus (c. 385–400) was probably from the west (most likely Spain or France), although most of his career was spent in Constantinople. His book may have been needed in order to secure appointment to the civil service. Providing a thesis or something similar may have been necessary so that the person's writing skills and knowledge could be assessed. Vegetius includes Cato, Celsus, Frontinus and Paternus, who wrote in the late Republic and early empire, as sources but does not acknowledge writers contemporary to his own era. Including sources from the Republican and early Imperial eras may have been important because of the emphasis on classical Latin and rhetoric. Please note that this is all conjecture as there is little information regarding the basic requirements for entering the civil service.

Vegetius describes himself as a "vir illustris et comes" suggesting that he held senior positions in the Imperial government and court. As such, he probably had access to the emperor, but this does not mean that his recommendations would have been accepted. Nonetheless, the work was not filed in an obscure archive but was copied frequently. Vegetius' work became very popular in medieval and Renaissance Europe for two reasons:

Unlike the earlier Greek and Roman military manuals, it was highly practical (even inexperienced generals could use it as a guide in the field); and
It was written in a clear and simple Latin, which could be read by many military leaders and translated easily into contemporary European languages.
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#20
I agree wholeheartely with that analysis!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
As far as I know "vir illustris et comes" means that he was a nobleman.But why do people think Vegetius' "Epitoma rei militaris" are an evidence for the decline of the roman army?In my eyes he describes a very well trained and disciplined army!
Kai H. Teipel
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#22
Quote:As far as I know "vir illustris et comes" means that he was a nobleman.But why do people think Vegetius' "Epitoma rei militaris" are an evidence for the decline of the roman army?In my eyes he describes a very well trained and disciplined army!
Well, doesn't he complain about how the soldiers of his day are worse than their predecessors and need reform? On the other hand, complaining about how things these days were clearly worse than their predecessors was a popular pastime for Roman intellectuals of any period. Which goes back to the question of how much we can trust him on...
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#23
he does complain, surely, but remember that he wrote with some purpose. Likewise did the anonymous about of De rebus bellicis, they both wanted to fix something, either because they saw problems or to further their careers. Same with Arrian, btw.

Also, overstating problems was also an accepted style in antiquity. Many are the descriptions of the West in ruins, pillaged, citizens killed to a man, cities razed to the ground!

When Vegetius claims the soldiers declined to put on helmets and armour I do not believe him, I think he's hinting at the inability of the state to provide armour.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply


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