07-02-2007, 03:48 PM
Before we built our first segmentata 1993 we used the "exploded view" of a segmentata from Robinson to create a pattern.We were not completelyhappy with what we came up with. We built several segs, used them in SCA combat, made adjustment to our pattern based on that experience. A few months later we acquired a copy of the Corbridge hoard report and patted ourselves soundly about the back and shoulders because some of our adjustments, intuitive and experiential, made them look more like the Corbridge finds.
What stumped us then was the tiny shape of the breastplates. We knew that edges were somewhat corroded but to what extent? .. if at all? However even assuming a 20% reduction in size due to corrosion the breastplates were still too small.
Examination of the lengths of the torso plates lead us to believe that the Corbridge seg sections were on the small side of sizing, at least compared to us, even leading us to the conclusion that the seg sections truly were from several segs as others had suggested.
Side note: After a few years of making segs and cannabalizing from damaged segs we had our own "San Diego hoard box". 80% of what's currently in that box are small shoulder sections becasue they fit the lowest percentage of guys in the group. In fact most of those small seg sections are from guys that grew out of them!
Our solution in 1993-4 was to scale up the breastplate.. and all plates to fit the guy the seg was being made for. The only times we were able to make a seg close to the Corbridge seg breastplate dimensions was for young small guys.. 16-17-18 years old... with chest sizes in the 28" - 32" range... and with pencil necks. I believe that our first seg was for a 50" chest.
For years we used segs with breastplates that crossed. Bishop's comment, some years back, about seg shoulders looking more like American footballers shoulders with the use of a subarmalis, how this brought the breastplates more in line with each other, sure solved a few problems for us. The breast plate closures.. buckle hinge and buckle strap, now lined up, started breaking or wearing out or stretching out at a much slower rate! The segs actually worked better!
In a prior post by Matt L a paper copy of cuirass 1 was used to illustrate how the breastplates had to cross. However, the paper copy in pic #1 overlaps the backplates by as much as 1/2"?
When we assemble a seg the left and right backplates abut each other and we put a horizontal curve in them to match the curve of the back achieving something like the paper depiction in pic #3. Torquing and twisting plates this way and that corrects the warpage problem illustrated in pic #4
In my opinion there is a problem with using the drawings in the Corbridge Hoard report to create actual shapes. These top view drawings of the several cuirasses are of curved plates, shown flat. What is missing in the drawings are the nuances of the actual curvatures and we still cannot assume that the curvatures of the pieces as found were as they were when used and worn.
Example: It appears to me that in Fig 27, page 27 of the Hoard report the perpsective view of the breastplate shows a slight inward warping of the upper half of the breastplate with a subsequent outward warping of the lower half of the breastplate. Damage from a rudis in practice? Crushing and deformation while being stored or buried? Poor perspective drawing? Me needing better glasses? Some torso section from the Hoard also show warping.
I believe that "ready to use" seg sections were not stashed away in that box. Was it junk.. not even worth toting away?
My solutions to the alignment question was to do what I could to make the plates work for the guys I was making segs for. Make the steel fit the body... assuming that straps and buckles should line up in order to reduce stresses.... by doing this we learned that the segs worked better, from our perspective.
Maybe our "works better" is not what "works better" for Romans back then. I'll concede that. But ,how can we know? What I know is that by adjusting the plate dimensions and by shaping the plates a segmentata can be made that lines up and works for the guy it's being made for
Matt L is correct. The seg shoulders in order to fit as illustrated in the Report must cross at a steep angle. I do not dispute or disagree with this finding. It is the same as mine
But, I do not trust the drawings to dictate the plate shapes and the finished shape of the shoulders. My experiences tell me otherwise.
I have a small sized seg on the bench right now.. 32" chest with breastplates much closer to the Corbridge finds than that of the seg I posted earlier. When it's complete I'll post pics.
What stumped us then was the tiny shape of the breastplates. We knew that edges were somewhat corroded but to what extent? .. if at all? However even assuming a 20% reduction in size due to corrosion the breastplates were still too small.
Examination of the lengths of the torso plates lead us to believe that the Corbridge seg sections were on the small side of sizing, at least compared to us, even leading us to the conclusion that the seg sections truly were from several segs as others had suggested.
Side note: After a few years of making segs and cannabalizing from damaged segs we had our own "San Diego hoard box". 80% of what's currently in that box are small shoulder sections becasue they fit the lowest percentage of guys in the group. In fact most of those small seg sections are from guys that grew out of them!
Our solution in 1993-4 was to scale up the breastplate.. and all plates to fit the guy the seg was being made for. The only times we were able to make a seg close to the Corbridge seg breastplate dimensions was for young small guys.. 16-17-18 years old... with chest sizes in the 28" - 32" range... and with pencil necks. I believe that our first seg was for a 50" chest.
For years we used segs with breastplates that crossed. Bishop's comment, some years back, about seg shoulders looking more like American footballers shoulders with the use of a subarmalis, how this brought the breastplates more in line with each other, sure solved a few problems for us. The breast plate closures.. buckle hinge and buckle strap, now lined up, started breaking or wearing out or stretching out at a much slower rate! The segs actually worked better!
In a prior post by Matt L a paper copy of cuirass 1 was used to illustrate how the breastplates had to cross. However, the paper copy in pic #1 overlaps the backplates by as much as 1/2"?
When we assemble a seg the left and right backplates abut each other and we put a horizontal curve in them to match the curve of the back achieving something like the paper depiction in pic #3. Torquing and twisting plates this way and that corrects the warpage problem illustrated in pic #4
In my opinion there is a problem with using the drawings in the Corbridge Hoard report to create actual shapes. These top view drawings of the several cuirasses are of curved plates, shown flat. What is missing in the drawings are the nuances of the actual curvatures and we still cannot assume that the curvatures of the pieces as found were as they were when used and worn.
Example: It appears to me that in Fig 27, page 27 of the Hoard report the perpsective view of the breastplate shows a slight inward warping of the upper half of the breastplate with a subsequent outward warping of the lower half of the breastplate. Damage from a rudis in practice? Crushing and deformation while being stored or buried? Poor perspective drawing? Me needing better glasses? Some torso section from the Hoard also show warping.
I believe that "ready to use" seg sections were not stashed away in that box. Was it junk.. not even worth toting away?
My solutions to the alignment question was to do what I could to make the plates work for the guys I was making segs for. Make the steel fit the body... assuming that straps and buckles should line up in order to reduce stresses.... by doing this we learned that the segs worked better, from our perspective.
Maybe our "works better" is not what "works better" for Romans back then. I'll concede that. But ,how can we know? What I know is that by adjusting the plate dimensions and by shaping the plates a segmentata can be made that lines up and works for the guy it's being made for
Matt L is correct. The seg shoulders in order to fit as illustrated in the Report must cross at a steep angle. I do not dispute or disagree with this finding. It is the same as mine
But, I do not trust the drawings to dictate the plate shapes and the finished shape of the shoulders. My experiences tell me otherwise.
I have a small sized seg on the bench right now.. 32" chest with breastplates much closer to the Corbridge finds than that of the seg I posted earlier. When it's complete I'll post pics.
Hibernicus
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
You cannot dig ditches in a toga!
[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
You cannot dig ditches in a toga!
[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
