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Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally?
#61
The breatplates sit square, not because they are wider, but because the wearer has square shoulders. When his subarmalis is worn the shoulders will sit flatter.. parallel to the ground

The plates are proportioned to fit the shoulders of Vitruvius. The originals are all way too small for his body thus they've been proportiond to fit

Functionality, durability. The plates all work better when aligned as pictured. Stresses on straps and fittings are reduced especially in combat, also when carrying the sarcina or when digging ditches.

We'll never know if the originals ever lined up.
We'll never know if the shapes, as found, were as worn.
If the plates, as found, are mis-shapen then any replica based on that would be in error.

Perhaps the originals were made to fit their wearer's? .... shaped, formed and bent to fit.. which means that if exact replicas of originals are put on the wrong body shape the resulting fit would be incorrect.

Based on my experiences (150+ segs and tens of thousands of man-hours of use) the squarer the breast plates fit the better the range of motion; the least amount of stress on fittings, straps and rivets.

The sarcina rides significantly better if the shoulders are square. Easier on the armor and the soldier
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#62
Sean,

It is difficult to tell from this picture because the upper shoulder guards cover, but it looks like the chest plates are cut at an angle. And come in towards the middle much further than the originals.

I understand that you have proportioned the plates to the individual. We all do that. But are you sure you adjusted both the x and y axis. Maybe you just scaled up the x axis, because these sure look wide.

IMHO, of course.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#63
I think perfection is being sought far too much, and the idea that the makers were particularly competent. As Dr Mike puts it:
Quote:So the order of the day, for authentic lorica seg, is plate made by geniuses, armour put together (badly) by monkeys.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 0847#60847
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#64
Well sure Jim,

But the question is, "Did the Geniuses design the plates to cross, or was this just another innovation of those damn Monkeys?"

My shoulder plates are Albion so I can't testify as to whether they match the Hoard finds, but the chest plates do cross some.

Looking at Matt L's chest plates, the cross is so pronounced, that I almost wonder whether the straps could be attached to the buckles on the opposite girdle plate. Then not only would the plates cross but the straps would cross. Perhaps this is the origin of the double cross, or crossing your heart, or maybe they were secretly Christian. Think about it.

:twisted:
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#65
:lol: :lol: :lol: @ Tony!

Well, Brian has actually handled the Corbridge plates, and, aside from the double straps, he has made them pretty accurately! Although due to my short torso, he only put six bands on the girdle!

Hence my desire to supply you with a drawing wit hall my measurements Matt! I am faairly unusual in proportion! Not unpleasing to the eye, so the girls say when naked , but, still different from the average bear! 8) :lol: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#66
Quote:Based on my experiences (150+ segs and tens of thousands of man-hours of use) the squarer the breast plates fit the better the range of motion; the least amount of stress on fittings, straps and rivets.

Quantity does not necessarily make you right. Could be you just made 150 segs completely wrong ignoring the evidence? And I really do not buy this "stress" arguement at all. If you are going to increase the size of the breast plates you should do so in the correct proportion IMHO. The breast plates on the picture you posted are simply enormous, and as a result the USG and LSG plates look pathetically small. I guess it comes down to re-enactment versus attempted reconstruction at the end of the day.
Sulla Felix

AKA Barry Coomber
Moderator

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#67
Quote:But the question is, "Did the Geniuses design the plates to cross, or was this just another innovation of those damn Monkeys?"
The monkeys probably, as they're the ones who cut and assembled the iron plate into a cuirass? Possibly also the soldiers themselves, based on practical experience in combat and wearing of? We just can't say for sure.

The thing is that there are all sorts of differently shaped and sized pectorals been found, and different parts from different segs were thrown together to make a single seg, so I personally doubt there was a strict 'design' in mind so long as the wearer was protected to a great degree. IIRC, I've even heard of two completely different halves being put together (or that's what the evidence seems to tell us), and if they had differently shaped pectorals then it's difficult to imagine a clear design being strictly adhered to. I tried a Deepeeka half and an Albion half together (the straps go opposite to each other so it was only to see what the visual effect was) and it's not as ridiculous as you might think.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#68
Quote:The thing is that there are all sorts of differently shaped and sized pectorals been found, and different parts from different segs were thrown together to make a single seg, so I personally doubt there was a strict 'design' in mind so long as the wearer was protected to a great degree. IIRC, I've even heard of two completely different halves being put together (or that's what the evidence seems to tell us), and if they had differently shaped pectorals then it's difficult to imagine a clear design being strictly adhered to. I tried a Deepeeka half and an Albion half together (the straps go opposite to each other so it was only to see what the visual effect was) and it's not as ridiculous as you might think.

Yes Tarbicvs, but one of the "constants" with the Corbridge hoard "junk" was the relationship between the width of the breastplates and backplates. This is seemingly being ignored to acheive a "better fit" based upon what various people's perceptions of that phrase are. If you also look at the photo posted by Hibernicus the relationship between the length of the breast plate and USG plates has also been ignored (they should be the same length near as damn it if you look at the Corbridge Hoard Excavation Report). If they were the "correct" length then the breastplates would not need to be anywhere near as wide as they have been made. I am all for interpretation of the available evidence but when you seemingly completely ignore it what is the point?
Sulla Felix

AKA Barry Coomber
Moderator

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
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#69
150+ segs and the 10's of thousands of man hours of use we've put them through does not make me "historicaly right" but it gives me a unique perspective. Based on that, accumulated stress on fittings, attachment points and straps becomes "in your face" evident.

The breast plates in the pic do slightly cross, but that will be lessened when the subarmalis is added. The breast plate is longer, (also bottom, middle and top back plates, but then the wearer is long (up and over the shoulder measurement).. 24", average guy is 21", smaller guys 19". If the plates were shorter the upper most torso plate would be in his armpit and he would not be able to let his arms hang.

The width of the breastplate is somewhat dictated by the width of the midcollar plate and then the width of his chest. Width of the chest, width of the back AND diameter of the chest are factors in makng the seg fit better.

The width of the midcollar plate is dictated by the wearer's shoulder measurements. Broad shoulders get a wider plate, narrow shoulders get a narrow plate.

My son's seg is much closer to the actual find measurements and when that one is complete and on him I'll post those pics.

The factors in "squareness" are caused by the angles of the top, mid and breast collar plates where they overlap; the angle at which the lobate hinge is attached between the mid and top back plates; and the twist in the mid collar plate. Very subtle adjustments at any point cause the breastplate to ride square.

Add in a subarmalis made to fit and everything lines up square.

The same adjustments made to one man's shoulder plates will cause the shoulder elements to ride very differently on another man's shoulders

We do not know the measurements of the men the Corbridge hoard plates were made for. We know that segs must fit to maximize comfort, protection and functionality. The armor, when made to those factors, is comfortable to wear, work in and fight in... thus more durable.

When straps are under stress such as when the buckles and straps do not line up they tend to break sooner or stretch more.

Side note: We've often joked that the Corbridge hoard was left behind because those sections sat in the armorer's shop for months and months, unused because being small they fit very few soldiers stationed there. I have a small pile of unused small seg sections that fit no one, but we keep them around becasue, who knows, someday they might!

Bishops prefers a squarer fit and my experience backs that theory.
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#70
Quote:150+ segs and the 10's of thousands of man hours of use we've put them through does not make me "historicaly right" but it gives me a unique perspective. Based on that, accumulated stress on fittings, attachment points and straps becomes "in your face" evident.

Sorry Hibernicus, but the only thing that is evident is that you are ignoring the actual evidence. It is far too easy (and convenient) to dismiss this evidence as "a box of old scrap", but somebody took a great deal of care and effort to save that scrap, and indeed maintained that "scrap" for quite some time judging by the evidence of repairs. Until this box of scrap was discovered just what was known about seg construction?


Quote:Bishops prefers a squarer fit and my experience backs that theory.

Your experience is based upon making segs that ignore the evidence as far as I can tell, which is fine by me. Interesting though your observations are I honestly believe they would be more interesting if your segs followed the evidence a little more closely. Just my opinion of course.
Sulla Felix

AKA Barry Coomber
Moderator

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
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#71
Quote:We'll never know if the originals ever lined up.
We'll never know if the shapes, as found, were as worn.
If the plates, as found, are mis-shapen then any replica based on that would be in error.

Perhaps the originals were made to fit their wearer's? .... shaped, formed and bent to fit.. which means that if exact replicas of originals are put on the wrong body shape the resulting fit would be incorrect.

All 6 of the originals from the Corbridge Hoard exhibit the same general shape, which has the mid-collar plates angled out such that the breastplates can only come together at an angle- only if all 6 are missahpen the same way and to the same extent could this possibly be a factor. But this doesn't make sense anyway since the issue is not the curvature of the plates, but the way they're joined, and any alterations in that due to the circumstances of their time in the ground would be obvious in the form of warping of the hinges- which is not the case. So unless Allison-Jones got all 6 quite wrong when she produced the diagrams, this is how they have always been. If we had just a single example then sure, questioning whether or not its features were intentional or incidental would be reasonable, but we have many and their arrangement is clear. Even if there were some real doubt, it's the only solid information we have. It cannot be discounted in favor of 'experience'- evidence shouldn't be adjusted to fit a theory, a theory must be adjusted to fit the evidence.

And as is so often the case, 'experience' related to modern production pieces has nothing to do with the issue- what one person has decided is the 'best' may not be what another would, or indeed what the Romans did. For all we know they ranked the importance of things quite differently, yes? No amount of experience will allow one to alter the facts of how the known artifacts are assembled.

As for sizing, the Corbridge artifacts aren't all odd or small- I found that at least one isn't too bad a fit for me and I'm 6'1", 200lbs. The differences are where it makes sense for alterations for fit to be- the length of the mid-collar plates, and to a lesser extent the width of the breast and back plates, but the former are still always being noticably narrower than the latter.
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#72
But, then, if we don't take account of the shape of a person, what is the point of re-enactment at all! To wear a seg that is not comfortable, and made to measure would be a total waste of resources!

It just takes the smallest of anomalies to make wearing this stuff a real pain. I know, as, without a padded scutum handle hole, the combination of arm pressing into top of girdle, and top of handle hole digging into hand, caused me to have nerve damage that lasted over amonth! I still have pain in the hand.

If it takes a bit of tailoring to do this, it should not be that big a deal.
After all Matt, if you made a suit that was confining for a soldier 2000 years ago, he would probably ask you to alter it untill he could march and fight in it. And then if you refused, ....... :wink: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#73
Here's a photograph from the Corbridge Hoard section of Mike Bishop's ARMAMENTARIVM website showing the back plates and mid-collar plate from Cuirass 4- an A- showing that the original form of the mid collar plate was a nice, normal human shoulder angle. Doubtless someone will argue that it might be deformed, but look at the hinge- intact, not bent- and look at the collar flare- the same shape as the flare on the upper back plate is- and the seam between the back plates- horizontal as it would be in wear (so the artifact isn't at some odd angle in the photo), all of which show me anyway, that it's intact and in original shape. If you picture the breastplate at the end of the collar plate, the only way to make it vertical is to twist the collar plate outwards and then the breastplates would be even further apart...
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#74
To me, it looks as thought the breast plate is drooping down a wee bit. Not a great deal, but there you go. I can see what your getting at Matt, but remember, it was dumped in a box, so there must be some missalignment to take into account.
Is that the one with the hinge riveted back together?

Nice pic by the way! Big Grin
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#75
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q315 ... 005002.jpg

This seg has a ripped strap, and would not hang well, although as soon as I rigged it to hang with the straps in the same position, it was closer to verticle, but being made for the 'EXTRA large legionary', there was never any chance it would hang right.

Might fit you though matt! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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