Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting

[Dan Z]

hock:

:lol:

That rocked. :lol:

[Duncan Head]

Did I mention we have a new book on Carthaginian Armies coming? It won't be ready till spring 2009 I'm afraid, but if you are still at it by then it may be some help!

Alternatively, anything useful said on this thread may be of some help to the book....

cheers,
Duncan

[Dan Z]

Hopefully there are some useful bits of information in this thread that may be of some help to the book.

I've made some progress - I now have a helmet that should do the trick once I get through making a few small modifications to it.

One of my sisters has also informed me that she knows of a farm not too far from where she lives with an assortment of critters - including an elephant or two for riding! She says the people there are quite friendly and proud of their animals. This Spring (apparently the farm is busy during the summer and fall, but slow during the spring) she and I will see if the people at the farm will let us do a little Carthaginian photo shoot. 8)

[Paullus Scipio]

.....attaboy, Dan !! Where there's a will, there's a way, and I for one can't wait to see those photos

Hope it all happens for you !

Onward and Upward !

[Duncan Head]

As for armor...I think we nailed it down to: they definitely might have possibly worn any type of armor common to this period or even none at all. I'm inclined to agree the troops had no armor at first, but that the officers might have had armor. There is no evidence for anything specific - although there was something mentioned in a poem about scale armor...that could be some sort of composite type or a complete scale cuirass.

In fact, for a late-Punic officer the safest bet would probably be a Hellenistic muscled cuirass. There are two partial terracotta statuettes from the "Chapelle Carton" sanctuary, probably 2d century BC, described and illustrated in Louis Carton, Sanctuaire punique découverte à Carthage (Paris 1929).

The first shows a muscle-cuirass of the type that extends down over the abdomen, two rows of fringed pteruges at the waist, short-sleeved tunic and cloak. Traces of pink paint on the cloak, blue and gold on the pteruges. The second shows the short waist-length type of cuirass, with shoulders-traps, pteruges at the waist, and again tunic and cloak. The only colour remaining is gilding on the edges of the pteruges. (The first example is also illustrated in Yann le Bohec, Histoire Militaire des Guerres Puniques (Editions du Rocher, Monaco, 1996).)

There is also the lower part of a muscled cuirass of the first type on what may be a trophy of arms visible on a damaged stele in the Bardo Museum in Tunis.

[Paullus Scipio]

.....Ruben, how did your vist to Volos go ? Don't forget to post the photos !

[MeinPanzer]

.....Ruben, how did your vist to Volos go ? Don't forget to post the photos !

My visit went well. It's definitely a beautiful museum, and one that I highly recommend. Of all the provincial museums I visited (many), it was definitely the nicest.

So, without further ado, the photos of the stele in question:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/chalk1.JPG
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/chalk2.JPG
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/chalk3.JPG

His bow can just barely be made out in his right hand. Unfortunately, there is no trace of his dagger, which hung from his belt in the exposed region on the left of his tunic, or his helmet. The shield is still fairly clear (especially the image of Herakles on it), and you can see the faint remains of the arm of his attendant holding his two javelins.

[Paullus Scipio]

Great photos ! Gotta love that aqua coloured shield ! A well-deserved laudes for your effort!!

[Johnny Shumate]

Was the soldier armed with bow, shield and javelins? Is this Greek or Macedonian?
Johnny

[Johnny Shumate]

What are the details on the tomb of Eubolos? Was this a Greek infantryman armed with a thureos and boeotian helmet? This is interesting....
Johnny

[Celtic505]

Being descendants of the Phoenicians, would the Carthaginians have worn purple at all? In the course of investigating Carthaginian native soldiers online I discovered this website http://phoenicia.org/carthagearmor.html
which does list it's sources but I can't say how accurate it is.

[Paullus Scipio]

Though the author of the site claims to base his information on Warry's "Warfare in the Classical World", it is done rather inaccurately in my view.

The purple clad figure in the photos is pure fantasy, and not based on any artifacts I am aware of......... :roll:

It is unlikely that African soldiers wore purple ....true purple dye came from the murex sshellfish, a tiny amount from each one. It was thus very rare and incredibly expensive and so was reserved to Kings and Emperors in the ancient world. When ancient authors refer to 'purple' clad troops, they mean a colour which is more of a dark crimson.

[Celtic505]

So than was it the Celtiberians or Carthaginians who wore the white tunics with the purple-ish/crimson trim?

[Paullus Scipio]

So than was it the Celtiberians or Carthaginians who wore the white tunics with the purple-ish/crimson trim?

...neither, strictly speaking ! Polybius and Livy both refer to Iberians in white tunics edged 'purple', and describe this as national costume rather than a uniform.
Diodoros records Celt-Iberians wearing black cloaks and Srabo records highland people ( mostly celt-iberians) as having worn black, with mostly black cloaks ( which implies tunics could be black too). 8) 8)

[geala]

Was the soldier armed with bow, shield and javelins? Is this Greek or Macedonian?
Johnny

It is from the tomb of a Cretan soldier from Demetrias in Macedonia, about 200 BC. He wears a bow and his servant carries javelins and a shield (perhaps for his master, or he used the javelins himself). Ruben (MeinPanzer) told a bit more about the picture on page 4. Ruben, many thanks for the photos, just marvellous.

Edit: 1. BTW, what do you think about the footwear of the Cretan and his servant? Unfortunately the lower part of the picture is not well preserved. The servant is barefoot, but could the different colour on the lowest part of the left leg of the Cretan archer be interpreted as the top of a boot/sandal boot? Or is the colour of the flesh just damaged or faded away?
2. What kind of bow do you identify?