Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting

[MeinPanzer]

As you will know, Sidon at this time lay within the seleucid empire, and the mercenaries/thureophroi on the tombstones will have been troops of the garrison in Seleucid employ. We are here merely concerned with the appearance/equipment of "mercenaries", and whether that appearance extended west to include carthaginian mercenaries. On the strength of the tomb of Abd-Asart (for thureos), the spanish coins (hellenistic helmets),cultural trade/conact/alliances (Carthage to Phoenicia and Italy/Etruria ), Poybius (for longche armed) etc, I would argue that this is very likely to be correct.

I think we primarily agree, but we don't really realize it. Yes, the thureos was used by both Carthaginian troops and eastern Greek mercenaries, but it was also used by just about everyone else around the Mediterranean at this time, so without a good idea of when the thureos was adopted by the Carthaginians, we can't use that information for much. The mutual use of javelins means nothing because, again, just abotu everyone everywhere at this time used javelins. Now, as for the Hellenistic helmets- yes, those were definitely adopted from a Greek source, but I think I have a more logical explanation. We know that Sicilian Greeks made use of Hellenistic equipment, and the Carthaginians had intimate contact with Sicilian Greeks. Therefore, I think it much more likely that the Carthaginians adopted such equipment from them and not from eastern Greek mercenaries who were imported.

Incidently, one further point for carthaginian use of Hellenistic helmets is the finding of several Statuettes in the Balearic Isles. The figures are naked and armed with caetra, and a missing weapon ( spear/longche - one found intact had a spear/longche 6-7 ft long ). They wear only two types of helmet, a cheekless 'montefortino' type - which resembles the one on Abd-Asart's tomb, and variations of the classical 'Thracian', often cheekless, some with horsehair crests, others with side feathers. Because the statuettes are otherwise naked, they are often described as being of a Balearic war-god. Clearly Thracian helmet types were used as far west as Spain and the Balearics. How would they become known there ? Via Carthage, of course !

I don't think I've seen these before (at least, they don't sound like other Spanish warrior statuettes I've seen before), but they sound pretty interesting. Again, I think a more logical explanation is that such equipment was adopted from the Sicilian Greeks through the Carthaginians.

Primarily, perhaps but not exclusively ! While there may not have been many greek mercenaries in Hannibal's army, earlier, in the first Punic war Carthage had employed many.Diodorus(19.106.2) tells us that a quarter of the army were Libyans ( whether levies or paid mercenaries is uncertain-those sent overseas must have been paid, if only to subsist).Polybius tells of Ligurians,Celts,Spaniards,Numidians and Greeks. These greeks included Spartans, the most famous of whom was of course, Xanthippus.I don't think your point about difficulties of travel is valid - greeks had travelled the whole mediterranean in numbers,raiding, planting colonies and as mercenaries for centuries.

Yes, I thought you would bring that up. These men were almost certainly hired with Xanthippus (kind of an ancient package deal, as occurred so often in the Hellenistic world with mercenary generals), so they are not indicative of a larger pattern of Greek mercenaries in general being hired by Carthaginians. But these are mainland Greek mercenaries, so they are not indicative of eastern Greek mercenaries as would be found around Phoenicia. In addition to this, they were most likely hoplites (especially considering the Spartans), and they were hired before the use of the thureos by Greek troops became widespread.

Some confusion, here, I think. It was not I who suggested red cretan tunics, but Stefanos. You asked for a source, and I merely supplied the one I think he was referring to - who, incidently, is not an archer.

I see, my mistake. Incidentally, Chalkokedes was not just an archer, either. He is shown with a small dagger, several javelins, a small shield, and a bow! It certainly explains why Cretans were known to be such good light troops.

see above, Carthage did employ greek mercenaries in numbers.

I disagree that one example, and a relatively early one in Hellenistic Carthaginian terms, is evidence of mass employment.

That is a shrewdly observed point and having given it further thought, I agree with you. The "usual" connection between troops armed in "Roman fashion" and Samas' tomb does not hold up. Mail at this point was still very rare.Thorakitai simply means 'breastplate -wearers', and need not imply mail. "Roman fashion" also does not imply mail at this time.The first depiction of uniform mail appears on the Roman late 2nd century 'Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus', after Marius reforms led to the State supplying arms to the whole army (States had been supplying armies in part at least as far back as Athens supplying ephebes and maybe earlier).

Well, there is the mention in 1 Maccabees of Seleucid troops in the 160s BC armed with bronze helmets and mail armour, usually thought to be the same troops "armed in the Roman fashion" as mentioned by Polybius.

Whilst on that subject, thanks for posting the three-feathered helmet ! Fantastic ! When Duncan was writing 'Macedonian and Punic wars', he and I debated as to how the legionary crests should be depicted, Duncan suggesting the one he illustrated, from Polybius' description; and I arguing for a central horsehair crest with side-feathers (on iconographic grounds - paintings,sculpture etc ) We were evidently both wrong,and also both right !!
By the way, I would be grateful if you could put me in touch with Duncan ( I tried a PM here but it seems he has "dropped out" of watching RAT ) as he and I lost touch many years ago.

Sure, check your PMs .