Onward and Upward - Carthaginian reenacting

[MeinPanzer]

I think I am going to have to disagree with you here. Both the Thracian style helmet and the quilted linen armor are Hellenistic style military equipment. Since the Carthaginians were a Hellenistic style army I think both the helmet and the armor are within the realm of possibility. I just found a refernce in Warry's Warfare in the Classical World in which he says Plutarch wrote of the Carthaginian troops wearing mail during the 4th century which might make mail a possibility for Hannibal's army as well.

Thracian helmets were Hellenistic, yes, but they were eastern Hellenistic, and they never travelled farther west, it seems, than Italy. It's not like all Hellenistic-era armies shared the same kinds of equipment; there were of course regional variations.

As for quilted armour, if you can provide evidence for it being worn in the Hellenistic period, I would be very interested to see it.

What is the citation for that Plutarch passage, btw?

The only problem with that is Hannibal reequipped his troops with Roman armor and it is unlikely he would have had them swap out one mail shirt for another. The reference from Plutarch claims the heavy mail of the Carthaginians bogged them down in the rain and they suffered serious losses as a result. The question is, would they have stuck with the mail after this defeat or would they begun using using the lighter armor of their opponents?

If this is the passage I'm thinking about, then I think the troops referred to here are thought to be the ones who received the captured Roman equipment, and so it makes sense that they would be wearing mail.

What were the Seleucids wearing or for that matter what were the Greek armies on Sicily wearing. If Carthage was going to imitate Hellenistic armies, then they would draw their inspiration from the Hellenistic armies closest to them.

The Seleucids were just about the farthest away a Hellenistic army could be from the Carthaginians, so they are hardly a good comparison. However, the Sicilians wore Greek style linothorakes and metal muscled cuirasses. I don't know of any evidence for Hellenistic Sicilian mail.

This is contradicted by the ancient historians who tell us that Hannibal's Carthaginians became almost identical in appearence to the Romans.

Which passages are you referring to?

Well, yes, after Cannae all those Roman swords had to go somewhere and the Carthaginians probably had first pick. The question is what swords were they using prior to Cannae? Hannibal put his army together in Spain and the local swordsmiths would have been much more familar with Iberian and Celt-Iberian sword designs than Hellenistic ones - although the falcata and kopis are certainly similiar enough. I would think that the Spanish sword the hispaniensis was based on would also be likely. The Romans reequipped their legions with this sword so can we really assume that Hannibal would not have done the same?

To be honest, I know very little about Carthaginian swords, so I can't really comment too much on it.

I haven't seen any pictures of these reliefs so I can only go by what others say about them and some people say they might be Numidian. I am always very dubious about anything I have not seen at least a picture of with my own eyes.

People say that the Pergamene reliefs show Pergamene arms, too. That kind of thinking is often drawn from older sources which did not have the information on arms and armour which we have available today.

A good example of this which has absolutely nothing to with the topic at hand involves a section of the tomb paintings from Kazanluk. I have read a description of the painting that says the two central figures are holding the same spear which supposedly is a peace gesture. When you look at the picture of that painting though it is pretty obvious that the two central figures are not holding the same spear at all - one of them is holding two spears/javelins and the other one is holding bladed weapon. In fact the positioning of their feet inidicates the guy on the right is in the process of taking a swing at the guy on the left - not particularly peaceful at all! :lol:

Yes, I agree with you that reading a description of something is no substitute for seeing it with your own eyes. And yes, I found that description in the Osprey Thracians title to be a little strange myself .