Linothorax design/construction

[Paullus Scipio]

Wolfgang wrote:-

Nevertheless, I have to say something again, because your dates are debatable.

...this is too vague to even answer!Which dates? And what do you mean by "debatable" ? :?
Any dates I quote are generally 'common ground' and backed by sources/archaeology/history

It is far from sure that the composite armour appeared around 520, as you argued earlier, and there are hints that it appeared also not around 550 but earlier still, at the beginning of the second quarter of the 6th c. BC.

...the earliest unequivocal depiction I know of, is on a black-figure wine cup, by Paroclus and accurately dated AFIK, to 550-540 B.C.You make an assertion that such corselets appear as early as 575 B.C. You do not give your source for this, which I'm sure we'd all be interested in, if it is credible.

Different opinions exist, some scholars date the vases to the second half of the century, some earlier.

Again this is too vague to respond to ! Which 'opinions'? which 'scholars'? which'vases'?
I have used examples which are accurately dated to known potters/painters who worked at known dates, as established by the greatest expert on the subject, John Boardman...I haven't seen any more recent work which challenges his dates/views, but evidently you have. Could you cite these, please?

I believe in the earlier dates and so for me the text from Alkaios and the appearance of the new composite armour fit perfectly.

...even if you could somehow bring Alcaeus forward and push the introduction of the Tube-and-Yoke back, so what? Alcaeus is still almost certainly referring to legendary times, like Sophocles and his 'chariot poles' so it adds nothing to a linen argument. And you haven't produced any evidence anyway.....
Given that the overall evidence is slim, even were I to agree with you, and accept that Alcaeus was talking contemporary it does not advance the cause of linen one whit, for the evidence for leather, slim as it is, still outweighs linen!
In all the time we have debated this, I have constantly asked the 'linophiles' to come up with one credible piece of evidence for the use of linen in classical era Tube-and-Yoke corselets. No-one ever has. And I would therefore be very curious to see yours.

So I have still difficulties to identify only the spolas with the tube-and-yoke armour and exclude linen as a material.

...are you implying that I exclude linen? I most certainly do not.....see even a recent post above. I simply say that there is no credible evidence for the base of composite corselets in general being linen, but there is for leather being the general base material, at least in Greece.How many times do I have to say this? :?

I have also some problems with the connection of thorax and bronze. Xenophon is not clear, as usually.

..on the contrary, Xenophon, the General, is very consistent AND clear in his use of the term, as I hope I have demonstrated. Others such as Pollux use 'thorakes' in its general sense of 'body armour'(and if you look at my earlier post you will see that I don't dispute that 'thorakes' has a general meaning of 'body armour'), but Xenophon uses it to mean 'bronze body armour'. I had hoped I had made this plain earlier.
The problem that you and others have is that you begin with the conviction that the Tube-and-Yoke was linen, and then look at the evidence in a subjective way. What you should be doing is looking at the evidence in an objective way, and then drawing conclusions from that...and it may be there is too little evidence to draw any conclusions from at present! ....but the evidence for Leather/hide, meagre as it is, is better than the so far non-existent evidence for Linen ( But perhaps you are about post some? :wink: )
But do you notice something? The new pieces in this puzzle - another separate Lexicon reference, Alum-tawed leather/hide being a good candidate for material AND being white, and the fragments of leather in Macedonian Hoplite tombs ( and Thracian ones too! ) all add to the evidence for, and are consistent with, leather/hide......and there is STILL nothing at all for Linen...... (