Linothorax design/construction

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

To Paul M.
Your translation: "...and instead of the ordinary "wings" or skirts,(pteryges) a thickly-plaited fringe of cords"
He is talking about linen thorakes. What am I mis-quoting? Doesn't this imply that the other linen thorakes have pteryges? Did I say he ever mentioned Greek thorakes? No,but since he is not describing a linen thorax with pteryges anywhere else.we can asume he expects every Greek knows that an ordinary linen thorax has pteryges. And I think the greek texts also mentions the material of the twisted cords. I have already posted the ancient text previously in the thread. I don't have time to search it now,I'll probably repost it when I have the original in front of me.
Khaire
Giannis

[Hypaspist]

Paul B,
Yes the picture I had in my mind was NoT , a " Tube and Yoke " Amour done in Bronze, :roll: But rather as the Iron One found in Tomb II Vergina , a Mimic , as You say something like a Fashion Statement or Reflective Piece.
As far as Rawhide , I have worked on Edo period Rawhide Amour . I was surprised at the time of its qualities .. So its use and Spring like qualities .. also its ability to hold a shape or keep a material like Enamel or Other Color on its surface .. made me think of it on this subject .. especially since it must be protected from the elements ! I had read Connolly , when younger and never questioned much at the time , its good to see some real brain cells being killed off on such subjects :wink:
By the way I have enjoyed your Posts too Sir on the subject

Michael Pechacek Sr

[Paullus Scipio]

Michael said:-

As far as Rawhide , I have worked on Edo period Rawhide Amour . I was surprised at the time of its qualities .. So its use and Spring like qualities .. also its ability to hold a shape or keep a material like Enamel or Other Color on its surface .. made me think of it on this subject .. especially since it must be protected from the elements !

...that sounds very interesting, Michael, especially the reference to rawhide's springiness...while rawhide's toughness and protective qualities are well known, this and an ability to keep enamel/colour are news to me !

I would certainly encourage you to try this material as an 'experimental archaeology project', to see if it fits the bill. D 8)

[Hypaspist]

Paul,
You are interested in Martial Arts stuff too. Think about it ,alot of Japanese ( and I would guess other Oriental Armour ) is Rawhide ! All these Hanging and Silk Roped Systems alot are not Iron , but RAWHIDE. Many are Lacquered , and such to protect and Decorate . I restored the set I was working on with Enamel , It took just fine And all those almost indestructible Dog Bones ! Rawhide .. really tough stuff , BUT it needs protection from Moisture ,.. Weather !!
Yes I have been gathering supplies this week ,, next week I will put to the test when I have time .. I hope my theory will pan out as I see in my thoughts ! And what small pieces I have . :roll:

Michael Pechacek Sr.

[Paullus Scipio]

.....and speaking of construction, is there any progress to report on Archimedes/Wesley's combined quilted/flat corselet, in all its crimson glory?

How is it coming along? Any Pics yet ? BTW a number of Macedonian corselets are shown in crimson and white - see e.g. Johhny Shumate's painting in AW3, based on a tomb painting.......

[Paullus Scipio]

Hypaspist/Michael wrote:-

Think about it ,alot of Japanese ( and I would guess other Oriental Armour ) is Rawhide ! All these Hanging and Silk Roped Systems alot are not Iron , but RAWHIDE. Many are Lacquered , and such to protect and Decorate .

....yes indeed Michael, and the lacquer on East Asian armour serves the very important function of 'damp/weather proofing'. When you first look at beautiful lacquered Japanese Do-Maru or Harumaki,you certainly don't think 'rawhide' !
Sourcing large enough pieces of rawhide may certainly be a problem....you may have to approach a slaughterhouse to get a whole Hog-skin.....but consider also Paul B.'s Alum tawed suggestion as well...it too seems a good candidate. Maybe some tests on small pieces before incurring major expense ?

[Hypaspist]

Paul,
I live in Arizona , its a Cattle State roll:
I have a question Gents I think I know .. but its been a really long time since I read alot on the subject .. and way longer since I went to School ! What fabrics where the most common .. Wool I would guess and Linen.. ?? what is the thoughts currently ??
Thanks ,
Michael Pechacek

[Sean Manning]

To Paul M.
Your translation: "...and instead of the ordinary "wings" or skirts,(pteryges) a thickly-plaited fringe of cords"
He is talking about linen thorakes. What am I mis-quoting? Doesn't this imply that the other linen thorakes have pteryges? Did I say he ever mentioned Greek thorakes? No,but since he is not describing a linen thorax with pteryges anywhere else.we can asume he expects every Greek knows that an ordinary linen thorax has pteryges. And I think the greek texts also mentions the material of the twisted cords. I have already posted the ancient text previously in the thread. I don't have time to search it now,I'll probably repost it when I have the original in front of me.
Khaire
Giannis

Unfortunately, I know of Greek pictures of 5th century easterners in quilted (?) cuirasses with pterges. I'm not sure when the fashion for wearing bronze cuirasses with pterges and shoulder-flaps started.

Xenophon just comments that the pterges were unusual, and doesn't clearly state whether linen armour normally had or didn't have pterges. He also doesn't say whether linen armour was unusual, just that the style of pterges was unusual. Pterges were not only a feature of tube-and-yoke armour.

[PMBardunias]

....yes indeed Michael, and the lacquer on East Asian armour serves the very important function of 'damp/weather proofing'.

Let me know if you come up with an authentic greek substitute for lacquer. Asian lacquer comes from a species of aphid-like insect that exudes a hard shell of the stuff for protection. I can find no reference to a species producing such fine stuff in the greek world, nor import from asia. The demand for asian lacquer in modern times tells me they probably didn't have anything so fine. Asians really lucked out with bamboo, silk, and lacquer. Glad I could be of some help.

[Hypaspist]

Paul B,
I do not think that The Greeks had such as Lacquer . My Only point to bring this up was that the " Tube and Yoke " Armour shows signs to me of being composite , or made of layers . That obsevation comes from Art of the periods we are talking of .That much shows edging material as on Pteryges. It seems not to be only decorative , but functional purpose as in holding together some layers or composition. Now if we had a Material such as Leather Covered Rawhide ( the leather serving as a weather barrier ) The leather could easily be decorated , Painted or Chalked , no need for such as Enamel or Lacquer for the barrier .
\\
Micheal Pechacek Sr.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Don't remember if this sculpture(though sure well known) has been posted in this thread.
The lining of the pteryges is interesting.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... r/mars.jpg
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Now if we had a Material such as Leather Covered Rawhide ( the leather serving as a weather barrier )

My biggest fear with rawhide would not be the weather, but my own sweat. You'd need some waterproofing beyond simply tanned leather for both inside and out. This is not much of an obstacle though, perhaps wax, oil?

[Hypaspist]

Giannis,
That Picture is really Cool , that is the statue of Mars from Todi in the museum Gregoriano , and has just the type of features I have been talking about D
Paul B.,
When I think of my picture in my " Minds Eye " I think of Rawhide Sandwiched between layers of leather , maybe even with a layer of Cloth inside . Or even the rawhide being covered between the layers with thin layer of Pitch ect .. Remember leather can and does breath .. look a Leather clothing worn today , like Leather Pants . I think it would get pretty hot in a " Tube and Yoke " Armour , but anything like this armour no matter what it is will most likely get pretty hot .

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

What I have come to believe is that whatever the material,the linothorax in the same period must have had many ways of construction. For example, two different soldiers from the same building(Parthenon) have linotorakes that look different. One has the edges of his shoulder guards stitched like the statue above. The other shows no stitching in the shoulder guards. Even the pteryges appear in a different fashion in three different linothorakes from the Parthenon. I have th pics in my PC and now I am in my home town,so I'll post the examples from Monday.
Of course it's normal that not all linothorakes look exactly the same. Different makers would have their own technique. But some times these differences may imply different ways of construction or materials.
Khaire
Giannis

[Hypaspist]

Giannis ,
I completely Agree with You on this .Certainly These " Tube and Yoke" Amours where made of many different Construction Techniques , and most likely differing materials , Certainly ! many Though do show such Commonality Across the Art that has been preserved .I wonder if in Large Armies Such as Alexander the Greats , If there where such things as " Munitions " Armour made for troops in mass , all about the same , ??