Linothorax design/construction

[Sean Manning]

...which should serve to remind us that the Greek tube-and-yoke corselet could well have been 'composite'.......for example, two layers of leather with flax stuffed between for padding, or leather layers with an outer cover of a single sheet of linen......or something else entirely....

I think composite construction should be part of our basic assumptions. Some Indian composite linen armors had a layer of leather in the center to act as a base for the nails holding on the metal reinforcements, perhaps analogous to the scaled portions of Tube and Yoke (T-Y) corselets. The abrasion resistance of leather would make it attractive as an outer layer or as edging at the very least.

On the other hand, if I remember what I read correctly, there were indian leather armors covered in a sheet of velvet. In fact even with pure linen we would have textural differences based on the density of stitching.

The question is probably more of of degree ands surely varied temporally and spacially during the long appearance of the T-Y corselet.

As an aside, does anyone still believe in glued layers??

And some late medieval padded jacks seem to have been made of leather, others of quilted cloth. We have a number of specifications from the 14th and 15th centuries, I think.

I think glued linen is definitely the worst of the three theories, for various reasons. It was an honourable try by Connolly to explain why the things look white but smooth, though!

[PMBardunias]

Paul, I have not been able to find a glue that they would have been able to use. all dried rigid and if flexed delaminated quickly

What did you try? Along with bone and hide-glues that are perhaps analogous to the type commonly used to make linothoraxes, there are various resins (pitch, rosin, etc.) from pines and more esoteric things like gums (mastic and others) and waxes, propolis and other insect drived materials (though they seem not to have had access to lac scales and laquor).

I don't believe that the linothorax was glued, but that is not so much because it could not have been. They probably had the technology to do so, but I can find no other application for the methodology and applications like this usually have precursors. Nothing like the extensive use of lacquor in Asia, though some glueing of wrappers in egyptian mummies.

Interestingly, the Silphium plant- of ancient birth control fame- produced a gummy adhesive. Unlikely it was used though, since it stinks of rotten garlic and I can't imagine that escaping the likes of Aristophanes.

A last point against adhesives is that some small fraction of your army would probably go into anaphalactic shock from the irritation and allergins produced by many resins- to say nothing of the itching. And then there is the flamability. Gives a whole new meaning to Roman candle.

[Jason Hoffman]

Resins, Milk, Hide, Lime, all dry hard and brittle and when bent just delaminate

[Jason Hoffman]

The other main proplem is that none of them are waterproof

[PMBardunias]

The other main proplem is that none of them are waterproof

Aren't pitch and pine rosin waterproof? Mastic must be waterproof because they chewed it like gum. Bees wax and propolis are as well. The varous hoof, fishbone and hide glues are not waterproof, just like the modern white Elmer's glue used by most to reconstruct, which is a point against them.

[Jason Hoffman]

Paul I would not consider pitch, mastic, beeswax or propolis as a reasonable adhesive to do the job of 'gluing' a linothorax together. Rosin is waterproof but dries stiff and is brittle.

[Hypaspist]

It seems we have only Sculptural and Paintings of differening kinds , ie , on Vases , Frescos ect. as evidence of the Tube and Yoke type Armour Systems. I have seen most of these posted and some not ,in various collections and images.What strikes me , is though many seem quite plain and consistent , other images show various methods of ornamentation, decoration , or use of different materials in construction . BUT the same basic Plan ! And for one would think that since most societies use what is available and what they have knowledge of use of, incorporating it into existing systems .. such as Armour Systems . I would put forth that obviously many different materials where used , why not Linen? , or Leather , Bronze Plates , Iron when available . I mean Look at the Iron Armour from " Phillips " Tomb , its made in Iron but mimics certainly the more common method of construction of a "Normal"Curiass .I really cannot think why there is so many Pictures of Differing constructions , if there was not many different constructions! But Alas ,we are all guessing , making Opinions from what Sources we have been left .And those few words left to us with direct connections to the Linothoraxs, ect .As Paul M., I think has shown quite well , there is a strong argument that these Tube and Yoke Armours could well be made of leather , Not Linen . I may put forth a opinion that RAW HIDE works quite well as Armour , and if covered with Leather or Linen , or otherwised protected would certainly fit all requirements .. It certainly can and will lift the Pteryges Straight up !As far as Whiting .. well Come on Folks if these guys can Paint Rose , or Red or Blue , they can certainly paint White their leather or Linen or for that matter Chalk it White such as The British did with their Cotton Web Gear, or Buff Leather Gear for quite a Long Time . The Purpose .. To keep it Pretty .. I would venture this is the reason for white , easy to apply and reapply as needed , to keep Fresh and Pretty .These Cuirasses are going to get quite nasty after a while in the field . So I think the White color is simply a pigment , not a reflection of material they are made out of .

[Dan Howard]

If someone can demonstrate that the word linothorax was used to describe armour NOT made of linen then might have a point.

[Paullus Scipio]

Dan wrote:-

If someone can demonstrate that the word linothorax was used to describe armour NOT made of linen then might have a point.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that use of this word in connection with the Tube-and-Yoke corselet is a modernism, like 'lorica segmentata'.

This word is never used by contemporary writers such as Herodotus, Thucydides and especially the Military writer and General Xenophon, and there is no mention of Greeks wearing armour of linen at all.
No-one seriously doubts that Homer was describing warriors who wore some sort of linen armour, but it was certainly not a Tube-and-Yoke Classical corselet.

AFIK, the actual word is ONLY used by Homer, and only three times(IIRC) at that. The modern use of the word seems to begin with Peter Connolly...

I think Hypaspist makes a fair point.....Tube-and-Yoke corselets could be made of anything from leather, to composite( re-inforced with scales etc), to solid iron..............but there is zero evidence for the use of linen, if it was used.

I take it we can agree, given what has been said previously, and given Jason's comments, that glued layers of linen is an unlikely option?

[hoplite14gr]

Paul Homer uses the wors "linothoriktos" (aka. linen armor).
Somewhere in this thread has been mentioned the exact verse in ILIAD.
So "linothorax" cannot be a new word.

Kind regards

[Duncan Head]

Paul Homer uses the wors "linothoriktos" (aka. linen armor).
Somewhere in this thread has been mentioned the exact verse in ILIAD.
So "linothorax" cannot be a new word.

Yes, Paul himself said that Homer uses the word, in the very message you're replying to!

The point he's making is that no ancient Greek writer uses the word linothorax to mean the classical cuirass with pteryges:

use of this word in connection with the Tube-and-Yoke corselet is a modernism

IIRC Dan's made this point about "the word linothorax [being] used to describe armour not made of linen" before, and it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument. In the period we're talking about, the Classical and Hellenistic periods, the word linothorax IS NOT USED AT ALL for Greek armour.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ok,no writers says "the greek linen thorax" or "greek linothorax" or "the greek thorakes were made from linen" but they say thorakes linoi in a context that could be used both for greek or foreigh cuirasses. At least in one occasion Xenophon in the anabasis says that the common linen thorax has pteryges,while those he describes is the same but has ropes! What more clear that the linen thorakes had pteryges. And it implies that the common linen thorakes that the greeks knew of had pteryges,because nowhere does he describe what a linen thorax would look like. This is not new info.I have mentioned it before in this thread but it is being ignored. In fact what he is saying is "...these thorakes were like the linen ones but instead of pteryges they had tuisted ropes (from a plant I cannot translate)" The translation is not the exact one(I do not have the text in front of me now) but it is clear the Greeks who read the text aught to know how were the pteryges of a linen thorax. I have never received a comment in this fact neither from the "linophiles" nor from the "leatherophiles" or the neutral.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

The reason no one commented before is likely to be that although you have completely distorted what Xenophon actually said, out of politeness, no-one was willing to say so, not least because you are debating most admirably in what is, for you, a foreign language. However since you would have it so......

At least in one occasion Xenophon in the anabasis says that the common linen thorax has pteryges,while those he describes is the same but has ropes!

No he does not!

And it implies that the common linen thorakes that the greeks knew of had pteryges,because nowhere does he describe what a linen thorax would look like. This is not new info.I have mentioned it before in this thread but it is being ignored. In fact what he is saying is "...these thorakes were like the linen ones but instead of pteryges they had tuisted ropes (from a plant I cannot translate)" The translation is not the exact one(I do not have the text in front of me now) but it is clear the Greeks who read the text aught to know how were the pteryges of a linen thorax. I have never received a comment in this fact neither from the "linophiles" nor from the "leatherophiles" or the neutral.
!

.....again, this is a mis-quotation. Nowhere is there any mention of "common linen thorakes" - this is pure invention.

What Xenophon(IV.7), referring to an Armenian people called Chalybes, actually says is this..... ( I give two different translations for the avoidance of doubt)
"They wore cuirasses of linen (thorakes lineoi) reaching to the groin, and instead of the ordinary "wings" or skirts,(pteryges) a thickly-plaited fringe of cords. They were also provided with greaves and helmets, and at the girdle a short sabre, about as long as the Laconian dagger,..."

" They had body-armour made of linen( thorakes lineoi), reaching down to the groin, and instead of skirts (pteryges) to their armour they wore thick twisted cords. They also wore greaves and helmets, and carried on their belts a knife about the size of the Spartan dagger"
There is NO connection with greek armour, other than to say that the Chalybes don't have'pteryges', but rather the thick fringe of plaited cords.He doesn't even say if it was of Tube-and-Yoke type. In fact, his use of the word 'thorakes' (lit: body/chest armour, usually associated with bronze cuirass) implies that it was not Tube-and-Yoke type, for which Xenophon might have said 'spolades made of linen'- though this might have been a clumsy expression in greek -'leather body armour made of linen'. It is a pity that Xenophon does not tell us whether the Chalybes armour was quilted or not.....I have a suspicion that all such Asiatic linen armour was quilted. That is probably because Xenophon felt no need to describe Asiatic armour in detail to his audience, most of whom could be expected to be familiar with it.....This passage tells us nothing about Greek armour, not even by inference.

[Hypaspist]

I think that getting back to the original point of this thread . Without all the cat fights :? ? roll: .. But most pictures ( if not all ) do show a Binding or Edging along the "Pteryges" Indicating to me of a need to sew up or encapsulate the Armour material . Indicating a sandwiched material to me , at least .I am curious to , to see if the Pteryges" will stand up as in Art .. I believe they will and will know in a week or two shock: My hat again is Off :wink:

Michael Pechacek Sr.

[PMBardunias]

I am surprised they have not found a Bronze one , Like the Iron one found in Tomb II at Vergina.!

I'd be very suprised to find a bronze tube and yoke. They had a perfectly good bronze armor, the thorakes. The later iron tube and yoke is either simply a fashion statement- mimicking the already well established (insert appropriate material) tube and yoke- or a result of their limitations in working iron plates into the form of a bronze thorakes.

I'll be curious to see how rawhide works for you. The Alum tawed leather I described a few pages back is somewhere between rawhide and true tanned leather in its properties. More like rawhide in its stiffness. I'd recommend you try some, but I can't find a supplier for anything but book covers! Good luck!