Linothorax design/construction

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

For example,in the battle of Plataia,Herodotos tells us that when Masistios fell,the greeks were hitting him to the body massively but could not kill him,until someone realised he was wearing an iron thorax and hit him in the eye

This is good, I had forgotten about this when I asked about iron armor at this date. So we know that iron armor existed, now how do you think this persians armor was constructed? How would you make armor of iron pre 500BC? Could they make a full cuirasse of it or would they have to cobble together smaller plates?

The fact that the Greeks "realized" he was wearing iron armor suggests that this was not completely alien to them, just unexpected.

The armor was scaled.It was not iron but gold.And If I remember,it was worn under his clothes and thus the Greeks could not see it.
Here is the text in Elglish and Greek. 22 [2]http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh9020.htm
It was worn under his "phinikis" red chiton.
Khaire
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm sorry Giannis, I'm no longer comfortable discussing this subject with you, so I will post no more on it.

Paul,you quoted not my last post where I presented your own text,and where i corrected my admitedly partly false previous message.Was that in purpose?I don't mean to twist the evidence,I posted the actual text I was refering to in the top of this page.
And as you say the spolas "hung from the shoulders" ("ephaptomenos eis tous omous" is the exact words),I say that the linen thorakes Xenophon is refering to have also pteryges.So don's say the linen thorakes have nothing in common with the tube and yoke thorakes.
You're misleading when you say every time Xenophon mentions linen thorakes he has to describe them.He only says the matterial.Nowhere I know of he describes how a comon linen thorax would be,but he says in some point that it has pteryges!
And I find it very logical,i would also need to know what type of thorax you're talking about,since I know the Greeks used thorakes from differnt matterials,like bronze,iron,linen and leather.But you keeps sayng this simple mention of the matterial of thorax means something great.Well it doesn't.
Khaire
Giannis

[salimbeti]

If Andrea is correct in his interpretation then he has just presented us with a precedent for what I have been describing

...one man's rather dubious interpretation of a Linear 'B' character that could be anything ? That is pretty thin, as evidence goes !

As well expained in the already linked web page the interpretation is not only based on the character design but also on the other elements described in the linear B tablet associated with this simbol.
So it seems that the simbol can't be anything!!! but very likely it represent a cuirass reinforced with bronze elements.
The corselet reconstruction drawing is of course only hypothetical but if we compared the Linear B descriptions with the plates found in some graves (more likely interpretated as bronze protections of corselet wich based on the very few remains found in some of the plates were made of linen stiched with thread made of goat hairs) it is probably not so dubious!!
Even if of course the general shape or design could have been different.

But I agree that this hypothetical even if fully reasonable bronze age defence not necessarly is a proof that the linothorax used in the classical age could have had metal reinforcements stiched or placed inside the linen layer and I don't have any evicence of that.

[PMBardunias]

The armor was scaled.It was not iron but gold.And If I remember,it was worn under his clothes and thus the Greeks could not see it.

Hey! now you are leading me on wild goose chases. I remember that scene because he was dispatched with a sauroter if I recall. I was all excited to see iron armor.

[Sean Manning]

For example,in the battle of Plataia,Herodotos tells us that when Masistios fell,the greeks were hitting him to the body massively but could not kill him,until someone realised he was wearing an iron thorax and hit him in the eye

This is good, I had forgotten about this when I asked about iron armor at this date. So we know that iron armor existed, now how do you think this persians armor was constructed? How would you make armor of iron pre 500BC? Could they make a full cuirasse of it or would they have to cobble together smaller plates?

The fact that the Greeks "realized" he was wearing iron armor suggests that this was not completely alien to them, just unexpected.

The armor was scaled.It was not iron but gold.And If I remember,it was worn under his clothes and thus the Greeks could not see it.
Here is the text in Elglish and Greek. 22 [2]http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh9020.htm
It was worn under his "phinikis" red chiton.
Khaire
Giannis

The learned Herodotus says gold, but it was almost certainly of gold-covered iron. Several armour scales of iron with thin gold sheets wrapped over them were found in the ruins of Persepolis. Alexander's men were very systematic in their pillaging and burning, but some scraps of arms and armour survived. I'd guess this armour would have had a vest cut, since it was concealed under an outer garment, although from Greek and imperial art we know Persian troops often wore armour with the same cut as Greek soft armour.

[Dan Howard]

Iron scale armour was common by this time. It was first used centuries earlier by the Assyrians.

[Dan Howard]

As well expained in the already linked web page the interpretation is not only based on the character design but also on the other elements described in the linear B tablet associated with this simbol.
So it seems that the simbol can't be anything!!! but very likely it represent a cuirass reinforced with bronze elements.

As I said: "another type of armour". Anything more specific is pure speculation.

[hoplite14gr]

This thread became a labytinth.
So lets summarize.

Literal and archaological indications of linothorax come from the Bronze Age.

Modern experiments showed that 15 linen layers were very resistant.

Armor of "composite" construction was not impossible but we do not know for sure it the ancients used it.

Linothorax could be both cross-stitched or glued but we do not know how the ancients did it.

I fail to see where the dissagreement is.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ah,you forgot to mention leather,there is the disagreement.Or by "composite construction" you mean leather and spolas?
And I'm happy to be the one who mentions it,because some indicated I'm systematically trying to hide evidence about leather when I'm not.
Khaire
Giannis

[geala]

Don't get upset, my friends. 8)

What do we have? Please feel free to add or correct:

A. Leather:
1. some difficult to interprete sections in Homer (f.e. where Achilles binds the youths he wanted to sacrifice with leather parts of a) a girdle or b) parts from armour)
2. finds from Argos from the 8th c. BC which are thought to be parts of armour (published)
3. Pollux in the Onomasticon (from the late 2nd c. AD), saying that the spolas was a cuirass made of leather, hanging from/ attached at (?) the shoulders, and Xenophon could say "spolas" instead of "thorax"
(my remarks: this is a very strong source, from an ancient lexicon, giving us the material of a certain cuirass. Nobody can say again that the Greeks did not use leather armour. But I feel not pressed from this to conclude that all composite/tube-and-yoke armours were made from leather. This is a) because I don't see a logically cogent reason for this conclusion and b) Aristophanes in the "Birds" named a garment, worn by a slave over a chiton, a "spolas", what could (only could) be a hint that the spolas was a simpler garment than the complicated tube-and-yoke armour.
Remark 2: Beware! Pollux was born in Egypt, so he was from Asia, - but mmh, he lived apparently in Athens :wink: )
4. finds from later centuries than the 8th c. BC? (Paul mentioned it but I don't know about it)


B. Linen:
1. reportedly findings from Thebes of layered linen from the 13th/12th c. BC, which are believed to belong to Mycenian armour (problematic, not yet published!!)
2. at least two sections in Homer mentioning a "linothorax"
3. Alkaios, living around 600 BC, probably till 580 BC, who said from himself that he participated in a hoplite battle, giving a list of armament and mentioning "thorrakkes...neo lino"
(my remarks: could only be a reference to Homeric armour (but why then "neo lino"?); could be a list of modern hoplite armour of the time of Alkaios)
4. reportedly a find of pieces of quilted linen in a tomb of a Greek soldier in Rhodos dating around 350 BC, believed to be part of armour (problematic, not yet published!!)
5. Pausanias (2nd c. AD) mentioning linen cuirasses for a Roman and Greek audience, being "not so useful" for fighters, because violent blows will penetrate. They can be seen in different temples, but the most in a sanctuary of Apollo in Gryneum, Asia Minor
(my remarks: if a linen cuirass is not so useful, it is at least a bit useful, and apparently used before in war! Compared to the contemporary iron mail, scale or plate armour of the Romans it may be worse, but that would fit with which we would expect from linen armour and what could be consistent with some sources about the not impervious Greek armour. That the place with the most linen cuirasses is in Asia minor is not such important imho. Perhaps it was more used in the east in the last centuries before Pausanias? Perhaps coincidence? At least it was in the sanctuary of a Greek god! And in other sanctuaries, in Gryneum were only the most.)
6. Cassius Dio (first half 3rd c. AD) mentioning a phalanx of 15000, raised by the emperor Caracalla in Macedonia, and equipped with pike and linen cuirasses in the ancient fashion. Even if the report was wrong/literary (to be linked with the antetype Alexander) and the soldiers were in reality equipped like contemporary legionaries, it is a hint that Greek authors knew that their forefathers used linen cuirasses

and

7. some mentions of linen armour in connection with Asian armour: Herodot about Egyptian armour, Xenophon about armour f.e. of the Calybians (Chalubon), where he writes "thorakas linous" and that these cuirasses had as (instead of) pteryges firmly twisted ropes

Apparently no ( n o ) written source for the classical and hellenistic time is known in which the cuirass of a Greek soldier is named as a linen cuirass! The one who cites such a source will received at least five dozens laudes from me.

(my remarks: that the word "linen" is used in connection with foreign cuirasses, but not used when armour of Greeks is mentioned, should not be overestimated: the Greeks knew what material their armour was of. But the short term "linen armour" as description for a Greek audience makes only sense in my eyes, when the Greeks themselves had linen armour, otherwise the information was not so useful. Would you say to your friend Bob "x had a kevlar vest when he went to the shootout" when you knew that Bob don't know anything about the performance of kevlar as a material for armour?)


8. In addition we have black painted vases from the 6th c. BC, showing many apparently new composite/tube-and-yoke armours in plain white (only other use: female faces), but also some in black.
(my remarks: this is a hint for me that some armour was made from linen (white), other from leather (black). Of course this is only speculation, but I would like to hear a better explanation.)

and

9. pictures from the hellenistic time showing white armour; and on some sculptures quilted armour (no colour visible)
(my remarks: leather could be painted white; but white is the colour of bleached linen; Why should leather have been quilted?)


C. Linen with plates within:
1. the form of some composite armour in pictures with rather straight front, sides and back
2. the springiness appearance of the shoulder flaps when open: would be perfectly explained by thin bronze plates within
3. some finds of bronze parts
(my remarks: which can, sorry, be much better explained as external parts of armour)
4. bad performance of linen armour without metal attached or within; and scales on tube-and-yoke cuirasses only at some places
(my remarks: may be, but we have many examples of pure linen armour from other cultures and times; and what about leather armour, also not the most impenetrable material, but used alone for sure?)
5. feel free to add (I'm not the best to give evidence, because I don't believe in this theory and haven't considered it much)


I'm sure I forgot important things. Add. And commentate it. Destroy it. Then everybody can make his own conclusions. And forgive my totally subjective and malignant remarks. :wink:

My conclusion is: We know not enough to exclude a material. We have hints that leather and linen were used by the Greeks also after Homer. Our written sources are too scarce/short/inaccurate to be interpretable in only one manner and with a certain result. There are too much ifs and buts to be too dogmatic.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Excellent.Laudes :!:

[salimbeti]

As well expained in the already linked web page the interpretation is not only based on the character design but also on the other elements described in the linear B tablet associated with this simbol.
So it seems that the simbol can't be anything!!! but very likely it represent a cuirass reinforced with bronze elements.

As I said: "another type of armour". Anything more specific is pure speculation.

Yes another type of armour but based on linear B descripton compoused by two bronze elements.
If we considered the diferencies between this armour simbol and the others (which reminds much more a Dendra style armour) and if considered that the simbols even if schematic were depicted accordingly the items general design (as well attested for the chariot ideograms).
The interpretations of a perishable material corselet reinforced with two embossed bronze elements (one in front and one on the back) it is not so speculative, maybe the shape or the general design could have been different, but the hypotesis if fully reasonable.
Always availabe to include better or "less speculative" reconstructive hypothesis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Andrea,Dan,I remember this discussion started because we needed reference about linothorax parts from the mycenean times,but as it has evoluted,I don't think it suits this thread any more.And it is already a complicated one...
Khairete
Giannis

PS.If I remember well,this disagreement between you two started in the BA forum long ago,and it has been transfered here. He he.

[PMBardunias]

C. Linen with plates within:

2. the springiness appearance of the shoulder flaps when open: would be perfectly explained by thin bronze plates within

Doubtful. The springiness has been demonstrated quite well for linen glued and stitched. The shoulders would probably have been the first bronze to go based on the lack or minimization of shoulder protection in armors with large pectorals.

My main arguement is evolutionary. If we look at the mediaeval plate for example, it took centuries to arrive at full plate armor, then centuries to get back out of it, with many intermediary steps of partail plate. Such a staged transition should have occured with the greeks, or we need to know why not (For instance if the Linothorax was imported from another culture, or marked a class shift in the warriors. Both seem not to be the case.)

I have only one obvious image of a transitional armor. Bell cuirasse with the Ptergites usually assocoated with the linothorax. See below.

The step after this would be to have a reduced bronze element on top, but we don't see in greece the pectorals seen elsewhere. Importantly the "linen" thorax is still being worn with bronze thigh guards and other peripheral armor, so it probably was not seen as drastically lighter at the time. Thus I think there was a "missing link". It may have only been used for a short period- 25 years or so- before they moved to all linen or all leather, but this would have been enough to explain the shape of the slab-sided linothorax being carried into the later armor.

[PMBardunias]

Here's the side view.