Linothorax design/construction

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Actually, no. That would be analogous to the scaled sections- the greeks just put them on the outside.

Oh,ok,just these were also supposed to have been covered,and would produce a kind of flexible thorax.

[PMBardunias]

Thanks, Andrea! Those Linear B corselet reconstructions are almost exaclty what I am describing- big plates in a fabric matrix. I have never seen this, anymore links to information like this would be great.

Haven't metal strips attributed to "lobster armor" been found?

[geala]

I think Paul M meant more something like the medieval cloth/leather covered cuirasses, for example like that from the graves from the battle of Visby or from pictural evidence from several churches.

Here you can see reconstructions: http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoa ... index.html

Possible, but I cannot yet convince myself to believe it. It would be a very very special form of armour.

Btw the Japanese box armours look quite different compared to Greek armour. And it was not made from large plates but small ones, put together with silk laces.

Edit: just saw the second post from Andrea. Really great stuff, have to look at it with more time than now. But it is not such a great similarity to classical Greek tube-and-yoke cuirasses, or?

[Sean Manning]

Thanks, Andrea! Those Linear B corselet reconstructions are almost exaclty what I am describing- big plates in a fabric matrix. I have never seen this, anymore links to information like this would be great.

Haven't metal strips attributed to "lobster armor" been found?

If such a composite construction was used, where is the evidence? Greece is one of the best excavated countries on Earth, and bronze can last indefinitely, but I don't know that any pieces of metal that seem to be part of such a cloth-and-leather armour have been found. I also don't know of any from the other areas that used soft armour with the same cut (now there's a phrase that doesn't suggest something wrong!) OTOH, if soft armour with this cut was made from hide or cloth we know why there have been no finds: such materials almost never last 2,500 years in the Greek climate.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

He has a point,you know,Paul.
Now you'll say some of those unidentified pieces of bronze are from such types of armour.Not convincing.The linothorax was the most common armor in classical times,there are vases and sculptures depicting hoplites and phalanxes wearing only them.Graves have been foumd with greaves,helmets ,muscled thoraxes and shields(most of them in italy it is true),but no such pieces of armor.
The link Wolfgang postd must suit your description to an extend.No such pieces in greek archaeology,not many of them together,at least.
Khaire
Giannis

[salimbeti]

Hey,welcome Andrea!
Thanks for the info!So,you've examined the linothorax parts.I noticed you used this name...so you do believe it is part of a linothorax and not folded linen.No pictures I suppose,huh?
How big the parts were?And you said they come from two different excavations?Two separate thoraxes?
Khaire
Giannis

Yes were two diferent linotorax coming from two separate burials.
Even if damaged the parts were large enough to be compatible with a linen corselet protecting the man chest.
All the archaeologists who performed the excavation were confident that such elements were such kind of linen corselet belong to the warriors cremated and burried together their weapons (small swords, daggers, spears point... and the relevant caulderons covered with their linen embroided corselets made of at least 10 layers of linen.

[salimbeti]

Thanks, Andrea! Those Linear B corselet reconstructions are almost exaclty what I am describing- big plates in a fabric matrix. I have never seen this, anymore links to information like this would be great.

Haven't metal strips attributed to "lobster armor" been found?

Some of the bronze stripes (look at the pages deicated to the armour) found in several graves in Mycenae, kallythea, etc...and in the thebes arsenal were more likely parts of a segmental armours. (in the same page you can find some hypotetical recontruction)
The small holes around the edges attested as those elements had a substrate of perishble materials and some larger holes were more likely used to joint the plates each others.
Some Achaean pottery representations as well as the linear B simbols/descriptions seems to be compatible with such kind of segmental armours.

[salimbeti]

Thanks, Andrea! Those Linear B corselet reconstructions are almost exaclty what I am describing- big plates in a fabric matrix. I have never seen this, anymore links to information like this would be great.

Haven't metal strips attributed to "lobster armor" been found?

If such a composite construction was used, where is the evidence? Greece is one of the best excavated countries on Earth, and bronze can last indefinitely, but I don't know that any pieces of metal that seem to be part of such a cloth-and-leather armour have been found. I also don't know of any from the other areas that used soft armour with the same cut (now there's a phrase that doesn't suggest something wrong!) OTOH, if soft armour with this cut was made from hide or cloth we know why there have been no finds: such materials almost never last 2,500 years in the Greek climate.

In the above linked pages there are several bronze elements coming from Mycenaean settlemens/graves that because their design, remains of perishable materials and thread (made with goat hairs) in the relevant fixation holes attested as they were more likely reinforced elements of a perishable material corselets.
In the same page there is also the evidences of relevant linear B simbols and descriptions of such defences.
Of course any reconstructio is hypothetical and the reinforcements plates could have been placed in diferent way or the corselets general shape / design could have been different

[PMBardunias]

If such a composite construction was used, where is the evidence?

Good question. They may all be in collections labelled as frying pans since no one would know what to look for. Although you would think that such pieces would survive in quantity, perhaps not. As I understand it we don't have much in the way of bronze "furniture" that must have been on even the cloth or leather linothorax. Something a useful as a flattened metal plate may have simply been put to other uses.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul,there is nothing to suggest this happened in ancient Greece,and even though it is plausible,I don't see why it had to be done.Some times in art you could say your theory could be viable but in many others there is no way there were metal plates.And linen armour existed as well in other cultures.It seems you just feel plain linen(or leather) lacks something and you need to put metal plates in the linothorax...If nothing else,the Thebes finds suggest that the evolution you proposed was not nessecary.And as Andrea said,many of those mycenean plates would apply to some kind of segmented armor or dendra type armor.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Paul,there is nothing to suggest this happened in ancient Greece

If Andrea is correct in his interpretation then he has just presented us with a precedent for what I have been describing.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

What?Textile armour with stitched metal parts on it?In the linear(mycenean) times?And you suggest that because im mycenean times some bosses were stitched on the linen or leather,the linothorax had to have bronze plates within the layers?Hm...

[PMBardunias]

And you suggest that because im mycenean times some bosses were stitched on the linen or leather,the linothorax had to have bronze plates within the layers?

I believe that the leatherophiles would say exactly the same thing about the finds of linen being extrapolated into classical linothoraxes.


Compared to the evidence for glue, I'm rolling in evidence. So feel free to publish dozens of papers and books describing this :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Unfair! I've already admited I'm not in the glueing part,even though when i made my linothorax two or three years ago I hadn't even thought quilting.
And I'm not sure about quilting either,as a matter of fact.
There are references of linen being used for thorakes in classical times,while there in no direct mention of leather ones.Spolas is not direct mention and is used once(twoice,but in the same text) to describe armor.
And in any case,the fact that others present theories without enough evidence or no evidence at all,does not leave you support a theory with no evidence :wink:

Compared to the evidence for glue, I'm rolling in evidence

Is this your best reply,really to my previous post?
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Unfair!....Is this your best reply,really to my previous post?

You're right, I was being an arguement bully by tossing the ball back at you without answering :lol:

When I came up with the idea of pectoral sized metal plates stitched into the linen matrix ( not overlapping inside like a brigandine or outside like scale) I had zero evidence of it occuring in Greece. It was all conjecture based on some features of the linothorax in vase representations:

1) Box shaped body. Could be heavy sewn quilted panels, but unless very thick quilted or leather armor would more naturally be in the form of a tube and probably not have the yoke, but be more like a vest or jacket.

- metal pieces account for the boxy shape and the need for a seperate yoke for the shoulders which may not have metal.

2) A metal plate easily explains why the front looks less armored than the sides or the top of the chest- places that need less protection than right over the solar plexus.

3) The "decorative" bands seen across the chest make sense if they are the borders of plates.

4) Provides a transition from all bronze to just linen. Without plates we have a scenario where they go from all bronze to no bronze and then bring it back as scale for some reason.

5) Perhaps it explsins the odd attachment of the shoulder flaps- they are so low to be fastened directly to plate.

6)Um...any other good arguement I may have espoused previously that I now forget.

I was forced to make analogies to armors from far different cultures, but now I have some precedent from greece. I could be right in terms of sequence and wrong in terms of time. The whole progression I present may have happened in the bronze age!

The fact is, I don't know. I'm simply presenting a possibility. Why not play devil's advocate and see if you can think of anything else a linothorax with plates would account for that linen or leather alone does not?