Linothorax design/construction

[Sean Manning]

I certainly wasn't convinced about the identification of the spolas with the 'linothorax' or the idea that 'thorax' always implies "metal" unless otherwise qualified. But without more data this won't be resolved.

[Dan Howard]

I think the word "clear" has a different meaning to some people. From the available evidence there is no way one could conclude that the spollas was a specific type of body armour.

[Paullus Scipio]

I think the word "clear" has a different meaning to some people. From the available evidence there is no way one could conclude that the spollas was a specific type of body armour.

I think you have misread what I wrote, Dan. All I said was that it was "clear" that thorakes means body-armour. You wouldn't dispute that, surely ?
I did say there was "little doubt" that the spolas was a leather tube-and-yoke corselet. After all, it is defined as such in an ancient lexicon. How often do our ancient sources take the trouble to define technical terms for pieces of kit ?

I certainly wasn't convinced about the identification of the spolas with the 'linothorax' or the idea that 'thorax' always implies "metal" unless otherwise qualified.

If you look at the context in which Xenophon uses the term, it becomes clear that he is referring to armour which is heavier than 'normal' hoplite armour etc. A careful reading of Xenophon will convince you, I'm sure. :wink:
[/quote]

[Paullus Scipio]

Hmm,the thing is that you take some things for granted

I'm sorry you think that, because after forty years of study and analysis of ancient history, I certainly do not take anything for granted !! :lol:
If I venture an opinion, it is one which is thought about, which has evidence to support it, and which is logically sustainable.
Of course, not everyone will agree (it's an opinion, after all ! ), but that is surely the fun of participating in debate on sites like this one ? We don't know 'the facts' for sure, so we are all free to form our own opinions, and some are brave enough ( or stupid enough, if you like! ) to post them so that others may comment - hopefully, that way, new avenues of thought are opened up. 8)

[geala]

I agree that nothing can be taken for sure.

It is not sure from the Onomastikon that the leather spolas was necessarily in tube-and-yoke form.

It is not sure wether Xenophon used "thorax" in a special sense. When he speaks of linen thorakes only when mentioning non-Greek armour, one explanation can be that that was only because the Greeks know the material of their armours, so no word was necessary. So a thorax could also be a linen one.

Thorakes from linen (neo lino) are mentioned by Alkaios, who is later than Homer. Linen is perhaps not mentioned in the later classical times because it was a normal material, like leather.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

That spolas was a thorax is a conclusion of Pollux,( http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=240 ) who fortunately mentions his source(Xenophon) that says "kai spolas anti thorakos" meaning "and spolas instead of thorax".So spolas is not a thorax,for Xenophon.The only troubling thing is that he sais it "touches the shoulders" "kata tous omous ephaptomenos" but this does not necessarilly mean the shoulder flaps.And Sophokles goes even further calling the spolas Lybisa a colourful skin "theras".
Khairete
Giannis

[geala]

Btw, this could be also a post in the leather cuirass thread, where we spoke about jerkins :lol: , but I do it here because I think of linen as the material:

Does someone have pictures from a frieze from the temple of Apollo Epikourios at Bassai in Arkadia, showing a warrior with a jerkin of a flexible material?

It is interpreted by Duncan Head in "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", p. 92, (15d). I have taken the foto below from his wonderful book (I hope without violenting the copyright).

[Paullus Scipio]

Does someone have pictures from a frieze from the temple of Apollo Epikourios at Bassai in Arkadia, showing a warrior with a jerkin of a flexible material?

The temple of Apollo , erected in a remote part of Arcadia was raised in thanks for being spared a plague. It was built by Ictinas, who went on to design the Parthenon. It had by way of decoration two friezes, both traditional mythological battles.One was a battle of Lapiths and Centaurs and the other Heracles leading Greeks against Amazons. The warriors in both are shown heroically nude. The friezes can be seen in the British museum. I have not seen anything that resembles Duncan's drawing, but perhaps he can shed some more light on its source, especially as it seems quite unique in apparently depicting a type of jerkin.

[Paullus Scipio]

"kai spolas anti thorakos" meaning "and spolas instead of thorax".So spolas is not a thorax,for Xenophon.

Exactly ! Spolas and Thorakes are different, of course. If you take the meanings I ascribed above, the phrase makes perfect sense.
'Leather tube-and-yoke coselet instead of metal body armour'
Elsewhere in the Anabasis, when speaking of the raising of the cavalry he says they were equipped with 'spolades kai thorakes' - leather tube-and-yoke corselets and and bronze breast plates, (because cavalry did not have shields, hence needed the body-armour.)
There is also the incident when racing the enemy to the summit of a hill, when a Hoplite complains that it's alright for Xenophon, who is mounted, to urge speed, while he has a heavy shield to carry. Xenophon dismounts, takes the man's shield, and rushes forward. He falls behind, because in addition to the shield he is burdened by his heavy 'cavalry' thorakes (breastplate, evidently a bronze muscle cuirass).The man's comrades shame him into taking back his shield.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Previously you said thorax means any kind of body armour,so thorax is ok for linen corselets,too.And the episode with Xenophon only "proves" that thorax also meant metal cuirass.My problem is that I don't find why spollas means the "tube and yoke" corselet,which is clearly a thorax in all sence,and many different ancient sources speak about greek linen thorakes,historians and poets among them(not considering Homer).They even say that the normal linen thorakes have pteryges(see above)!What else more distinctive than that do we need to say that linen thorax is what we today identify as a "linothorax" and that spolas is something different,something that an arrow(a big Karducian arrow) can penetrate after it has also penetrated a shield!And we also have clues that something else was being used(a leather jerkin) but we find it difficult to prove it by ancient artefacts.Even the so widely used linothorax is so rare in sculptures in classical times.
Our debate concentrates in only one spot.I don't find enough convincing evidence that spolas is the "tube and yoke" corselet,while I know that the Greeks were using another linen thorax,that also has pteryges.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

(sigh !! ) I thought we said we weren't going to get into this subject ( again !! )

thorax means any kind of body armour,so thorax is ok for linen corselets,too.

Yes, we have seen that Xenophon refers to thorakes lineoi, but , significantly, not in a greek context. If greek tube-and-yoke coselets were linen, why did he not say that the Chalybes wear corselets'just like ours', for instance?
Now I don't know whether Greeks wore linen tube-and-yoke corselets, or not. It is possible they did not. I do believe they wore ones made of leather which Xenophon calls spolades, for it is defined so in the Onomastikon, and no amount of 'fudging' can alter this.
But I shall keep an open mind on this.

many different ancient sources speak about greek linen thorakes,historians and poets among them(not considering Homer).They even say that the normal linen thorakes have pteryges(see above)!

Really ?
The tube-and-yoke corselet appears in greek art around 520 B.C. or thereabouts and disappears around the second century B.C.. Perhaps you can give sources for these poets and historians from this period who refer unequivocally to 'linothorax' or 'thorakes lineoi' . And Xenophon does not say'normal linen thorakes have pteryges'.

Our debate concentrates in only one spot.

Indeed! Let us test this assumption that there is plenty of evidence for greek 'linothorakes'. I suspect we are going to find even less than for leather 'spolades'. )
Let us see some evidence, please. D

[Sean Manning]

IMHO, Paulus, all you have shown is that the spolas was a type of armour commonly used by hoplites in Xenophon’s day, and that a later author believed they were made from leather. Identifying it with the linothorax is a plausible guess, nothing more. For example, we don’t have any evidence that spolades have pterges. There were more types of armour used in this period that 'linothoraxes' and bronze cuirasses.

And the 'linothorax' was not just a Greek piece of gear. Anatolian art such as the sarcophagus that Laran recently posted often shows troops in ‘linothoraxes’. The very accurate ‘Alexander Mosaic’ and ‘Sidon Sarcophagus’ both show imperial troops in ‘linothoraxes.’ Pieces of art made for the Scythian trade like the Sokha Comb show Scyths in 'linothoraxes'. You can't just say that because Greek writers often refer to foreign linen armour, linen armour was not used by Greeks.

Yes, we have seen that Xenophon refers to thorakes lineoi, but , significantly, not in a greek context. If greek tube-and-yoke coselets were linen, why did he not say that the Chalybes wear corselets'just like ours', for instance?

The Chalybian thorax has one clear difference from a Greek one: it has ropes instead of peterges.

Exactly ! Spolas and Thorakes are different, of course. If you take the meanings I ascribed above, the phrase makes perfect sense.
'Leather tube-and-yoke coselet instead of metal body armour'

There is also the incident when racing the enemy to the summit of a hill, when a Hoplite complains that it's alright for Xenophon, who is mounted, to urge speed, while he has a heavy shield to carry. Xenophon dismounts, takes the man's shield, and rushes forward. He falls behind, because in addition to the shield he is burdened by his heavy 'cavalry' thorakes (breastplate, evidently a bronze muscle cuirass).The man's comrades shame him into taking back his shield.

A 'heavy' cavalry armour could be a metal-reinforced linothorax, or possibly just one cut with less concern for running.

Elsewhere in the Anabasis, when speaking of the raising of the cavalry he says they were equipped with 'spolades kai thorakes' - leather tube-and-yoke corselets and and bronze breast plates, (because cavalry did not have shields, hence needed the body-armour.)

Do you have any evidence for troops wearing both a metal breastplate and a full-weight linothorax? This seems to suggest that a spolas was a light protection more suitable as padding than independent protection.

[Paullus Scipio]

IMHO, Paulus, all you have shown is that the spolas was a type of armour commonly used by hoplites in Xenophon’s day, and that a later author believed they were made from leather. Identifying it with the linothorax is a plausible guess, nothing more.

Sure, Sean, I'll accept that ! the evidence is scanty, but there - now do the same for greek use of a tube-and-yoke corselet made of linen......

There were more types of armour used in this period that 'linothoraxes' and bronze cuirasses.

Really ? I thought we were talking greek hoplite body armour - the two main types depicted in art being the tube and yoke corselet and the bronze muscled cuirass. Perhaps you would like to post depictions of Hoplites wearing something else.

And the 'linothorax' was not just a Greek piece of gear.

Agreed ... the tube- and- yoke armour was used in Asia and other places as well, and we are told Asiatic body armour could be made of linen.....but I'm waiting for someone to post sources for greek use of linen tube-and-yoke corselets.

You can't just say that because Greek writers often refer to foreign linen armour, linen armour was not used by Greeks.

I haven't....but let us see some evidence that they did......

The Chalybian thorax has one clear difference from a Greek one: it has ropes instead of peterges

As I have pointed out already, that is not what Xenophon says.. :roll:

A 'heavy' cavalry armour could be a metal-reinforced linothorax, or possibly just one cut with less concern for running.

The former is possible ( though Xenophon would then have said'spolades'), the latter is not - all these 'cavalry' cuirasses were donated by Hoplites.

Do you have any evidence for troops wearing both a metal breastplate and a full-weight linothorax?

You misunderstand- it is clear from the context that some received 'spolades' and some 'thorakes'.Nobody wore both.

[geala]

I think, we had this discussion before.

Paul, your conclusions go a bit too far for me. It is possible that the denominations of the armours by the ancient authors don't have the system that we like to have.

We see the tube-and-yoke cuirass coming in use in the 6th c. BC. We have a list of hoplite stuff from Alkaios (should be Alc. fr. 54, I don't own this source myself), where he mentioned "thorrakkes...neo lino". We see that in many black figured vase paintings the new cuirass is shown in plain white (white is otherwise only used for female faces), which can be interpreted as bleached linen - the new armour material should be highlighted. We have sources for the cultivation of flax in Greece and we have trade with foreign regions where flax was grown. For me that is enough to conclude that at least a good part of the tube-and-yoke cuirasses were made of linen.

We have seen in the discussion that Xenophon used "thorax" also for non-metallic cuirasses. Pollux writes that Xenophon could say "spolas" instead of "thorax". That means logically that the spolas is a form of thorax. It is made from leather. But it is not said that it is just the tube-and-yoke armour. It could also be a form of jerkin which is sometimes shown in vase paintings (although it could often be interpreted also as part of the chiton itself - we had a discussion in the leather armour thread). Or it could be the leather form of the tube-and-yoke armour.

The term "spolas" should be taken with care. In Aristophanes "Birds" (933 ff.) the overgarment of a slave was also named as spolas. That could be a hint to a (leather?) jerkin for protection during hard work. Hesiod tells us that peasants wore a kind of leather garment during work. For me these things are hints that the spolas was a form of simpler leather protection, not necessarily the tube-and-yoke armour. It is only seldomly shown in the art because the art was mainly for the upper classes who were not very interested in such low grade equipment.

I would prefer to keep my point of view that many things were possible and the Greeks did not have only bronze muscle cuirasses and leather tube-and-yoke composite cuirasses, but also linen composite cuirasses and simpler jerkins of perhaps linen and leather for protection.

Btw, in the EB forum (a pc game mod, based on Rome:TW, trying to be as historically accurate as possible, starting at 272 BC) some months ago was a discussion about a quilted linen jerkin as armour for Cretan archers. It was said that pieces of quilted linen of about 350 BC were found in a tomb in Rhodes and that A. Snodgrass believes it to be part of a cuirass. It was however not published then.

[Anonymous]

Paullus Scipio\\n[quote](sigh !! ) I thought we said we weren't going to get into this subject ( again !! )

In fact, you have both said this, at the point at which each of you had had the last word! If you are serious about not chewing over old bones, one of you has to be the first to stop. I point this out in my role as Moderator.