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Quote:We'll never solve that problem with nudity...
But trying to represent iron in that vase is not realistic either.It's too early for iron cuirasses.We can harldy find examples in Hellenistic times,a vase of the early-middle fifth century is unlikely to depict iron muscled cuirass!
Khaire
Giannis
We can hardly find examples from any times, but that doesn't rule out that such cuirasses were worn!
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Come on,at this moment you're suggesting that it's more logical to say this is an iron muscled cuirass rather than painted or something else,when there is no mention nor find of a single piece of armour(helmet,cuirass,greaves,hand and leg guards,anything) from that time period!And in the same vase there are painted helmets...
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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Agreed. By Ruben's argument there must have been ninjas in Classical greece since one can't prove that they weren't.
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Yiannis can you give me references for this pottery piece please?
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Stefanos,I hoped somebody from here could help me,too,but I have yet to find the reference.Once I posted this in the Phalanx forum someone told me it is a representation of the Seven of Thebes (and indeed there are about 14-15 hoplites on stage),but nothing more,sorry.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
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Hmmm....yes I see Theban enblems but if someone has a refernce it would help.
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Quote:Come on,at this moment you're suggesting that it's more logical to say this is an iron muscled cuirass rather than painted or something else,when there is no mention nor find of a single piece of armour(helmet,cuirass,greaves,hand and leg guards,anything) from that time period!And in the same vase there are painted helmets...
Khaire
Giannis
I'm saying that because there is so little material evidence even from the periods in which we know that such armour was worn, lack of material evidence during this period is not an indication of anything. Also, we don't know if those helmets are supposed to be painted, either. Black and white is simply too simplistic a medium to be able to say one way or the other.
Quote:Agreed. By Ruben's argument there must have been ninjas in Classical greece since one can't prove that they weren't.
:roll: Only that image shows what seems to be an entirely dark metal cuirass.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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He might be a ninja. They wore black. 
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The black cuirass could also be a leather one. :twisted: :lol:
Then this hoplite would wear a leather muscle cuirass with leather pteruges, the other guy a bronze cuirass with leather pteruges. Hähähä... :roll:
Perhaps the best explanation is a painted one, isn't it? :wink:
When mythological scenes are depicted we must be aware of some hidden code. Perhaps the guy with the black cuirass was assigned to "black" for some reasons. Perhaps others must be shown naked. The public would have known this. That could have been similar to the many codes in medieval art.
Many modern people cannot imagine to fight barefoot or naked. That does not mean that it did not happen. I believe that fighting barefoot was quite common, it has advantages. I don't believe that fighting naked was nearly as common as depicted in the paintings; but could not some guys, living in a society where heroes are frequently shown naked, sometimes chose to fight naked themselves?
Wolfgang Zeiler
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Stefan Pop-Lazic
by a stuff demand, and personal hesitation
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The only case of a warrior fighting nakes comes from Plutarch "Agesilaos" 34.7-8. And the guy was fined for exposing himself! Barefoot also is fine on fortifications or ship decks but uncomfortable in real life.
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Stefane,you frequently say that they probably fought barefoot only on fortifications and ships but you don't have any sources for this,do you?It's a conclusion based in modern experience and only!I can't walk bare foot in a modern road but I assure you some years ago they walked kms and worked in farms without shoes.And don't imagine they had modern roads in my village in,let's say, the 30's and 40's!My father used to play footbal bare foot when he was a kid.And not in football pitches of cource!
Now,fighting can be more dangerous,but fighting is dangerous in itself!
As for the Spartan that fough "naked",I don't have the text,can you remind me what he was wearing?Did he have a shield and helmet or he just brabed his spear and went out?"Gymnos" could mean without shield,as he was supposed to fight in a phalanx.We also know they punished only lost shields and not cuirasses and helmets.That fits to this example.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
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Didn't Greeks consider the custom of some Gauls to fight naked to be a strange and savage custom? That is another reason I have found heroic nudity a fairly convincing idea.
Nullis in verba
I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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Strange!Why didn'y they consider it heroic!
Giannis K. Hoplite
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It says he just grabed his weapons and went out and charged the incoming rebel helots. So heavy speculation here. Probably if he was sleeping naked (very probable in antiquity) he had the hoplite shield and a spear or sword. Heavy speculation on the helmet too.
Most of the "fields walk ways" especially in the plains are soft dirt and many villages had paved roads. Going barefoot there is no big deal. The same on fortifications flat tiles. Mariners go usually barre foot on decks so no big deal on a trereme also. It is another thing to negotiate thorns and razor sharp stones out of the flatlands. You dont´t have the luxury tochoose your footage in a battle.
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