Swastikas, Roman Gear, modern reenactment (cont from market)

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Well, since you did bring it up, lets not forget that if not for the soldiers fighting and dying under the banner with the hammer and sickle, including my not so distant relatives, perhaps having the swastika around would actually be a requirement now in a good chunk of the world.

Za Rodina!

[Tarbicus]

I’m really glad that the Romans never used red stars or hammer and sickle so we can completely skip any problem related to that :wink: .

Well, since you did bring it up,

It was actually Byron who brought it up, and Heiko was responding to that.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

REad that one too Magnus! 8)

As far as reaction to the phallus, I wear one I was given as a freebie, and so far, it hasn't caused too much problem! Except when I have deliberatly shown it to someone to freak them out!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree too with the sentiments expressed by Magnus, I just feel the longer the Nazis are allowed to hold sway with a symbol, the longer it will be possible for neo-nazis to be able to use it to offend. But, as you say, there are still many people with personal experience of the horrors perpertrated by the Nazis et al, so who am I to start a movement to reclaim it!

Edit: No offense is ment to anyone, what ever the history of their respective countries........and yes there was a great deal to thank the soviet union for......but also a lot not to like about :roll:

Anyway, the only people I would deliberatly go out of my way to offend would be the Nazis/neo-nazis.....if wearing a pugio with the symbol on it were to do that, then so be it. I would not in a million years go out of my way to offend those who have suffered from the Nazi regime in WWII, and feel that if you think I would , then we should get to know each other better......I just get a bit single minded at times when I have an idea, so sorry if I have upset anyone!

[satsobek]

No mate, the only time I saw that was in the Naples museum with the graphic depictions of what was on offer at Pompeii's brothel. Penis talismans are absolutely everywhere.

No kidding? Someone told me there was a seperate area for it...but perhaps that was in a N. American museum.

Yea-- not really. When I was in highschool, our Latin class got to visit pompeii. There was no regulation about all of us getting to go into the brothels there and see the phallic signs and erotic frescoes painted all over the walls, and we were all girls between 14 and 18... so it's not really a big deal over there.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Avete omnes,
So if someone says:
I / we want a swastika on the Melun pugio.
I / we want it, even if it’s unlikely that it was original.
I / we want it, even if other members are not allowed to buy it.
That’s clear.

Heiko,for the third (?) time, no one ever brought the idea of having or not having the swastika on the MELUN pugio, except you.

Ave Alexander, avete omnes,

It seems I have to answer fast then. I was born in a part of Germany, which inhabitants have the reputation to be extremely stupid (contless jokes…), so three times matches just the number of our estimated maximum number of brain cells ;-) )

First, I don’t want to offend someone. Right, the thread began with the two prototypes, following other original finds. But after the swastika discussion, Deepeeka (and Adrian, who did all the research and designing work) decided to prefer the non-swastika Melun dagger.

While the Melun being shortly before release, now the swastika question popped up again. So in this context, at this stage in a 20 pages-thread, I understood this as either putting the whole project in question again or as ‘I or we want a swastika on the Melun’.

A clear word like: Can we have a swastika-pattern next time or a new thread would have been better, IMHO. Due of the repeated arguments that Deepeeka decided for the Melun model, a very small, homgenous series of 100 and no extra designs even when all are handcrafted, that discussion should have come to and end and shift to a new thread, preparing another variant or dagger model.

But to me, it seemed to shift to a moral level, blaming Germans not to be tolerant enough to allow swastikas and restrict re-enactors by that. That hits a certain nerve.

To make clear: I honour the individual person. And I’m convinced, that under the hakenkreuz, the red star and other symbols, there always were brave, clean men and women, unselfish heroes and shiny examples of morale and humanity. And I also know, that even worse actions or systems sometimes prevent much worse action of others. Germans like Schindler are heroes to the Jews today. But these were a minority in Nazi Germany.

In summary, there were some dictatorship systems, which left multi-millions of dead. Not only soldiers or ‘collateral damage’, but systematically mass murdered civilians. That makes their symbols dirty to me but of course don’t touch the honour of individuals.

You can’t blame any individual for the system – but on the other hand, you can’t redeem a system by the good deeds of individuals.

But that’s the problem in Germany. You know, we have not only the Nazi heritage, but also a Communist one after 4 decades of being divided in West and East.

That’s what a good German at least has to do:
- Feel personally guilty for the Holocaust
- Condemn the Nazi system as the expression of evil
- Never forget and do anything, that it never happens again
- Be sorry for every Neo Nazi activity (which is of course instantly published worldwide)
- Be tolerant and not restrict the freedom of using certain symbols, as if nothing happened
- Forget about the faint past and look forward
- Let Neo Nazis and old Communists proclaim their ideas in our parliaments, including denying the holocaust
- Help Israel as a duty due to Germany’s historical heritage
- Regret to have helped founding Israel, because that caused the Palestine problem
- Condemn the Communist system because it was more evil, enemy to the US and oppressed East Germany
- Honour the communist system, because it fought the Nazis
- Honour the Nazi party and army as far as it fought the Communists
- Honour the great military deeds and inventions
- Be deeply ashamed for the goal of the war, the terror and the mass murder
- Never forget the ‘Stasi’ (Secret East German police) and the people shot in the back when trying to climb over the ‘Mauer’ (infamous former border wall).
- Realize, that most east Germans were imprisoned in their own country
- And… and.. and…

Depending on your interlocutor (sometimes rather prosecutor), you are guilty if you will not condemn all systems, several systems or just one special system. You are guilty if you don’t point out the honour of individuals or in contrary, because you do that.

That’s a deadly trap, cross-fire coming from all sides. And many shots are coming from people who don’t live here. Germans have to be a kind of universal saint, able to respect, honour and condemn the same system or symbol in the same instant. Nobody can do that.

Please excuse, that my personal opinion won’t cover that all. I’m far from being perfect.

Back to the dagger: Talking about scientific facts, features of an original, measurements, production numbers or sale decisions are rather objective. There are clear points in the focus, which can be checked or have to be respected as the will of the manufacturer.

Moral discussions are the contrary. That’s why I don’t like this shifting to morale levels. Germans often experience, that if someone loses ground in a fact-based discussion, the moral discussion will follow. Perhaps I’ve mistaken it, perhaps it is paranoia. But that’s how I understood the swastika-discussion at that stage (!) of the Melun thread.

If there are so much people interested in a swastika pugio, it would have been more constructive to start a new thread, provide us with information, select a certain pattern and perhaps collect votes or pre-orders to allow Deepeeka to decide whether production will make sense…

As far as someone feels offended, I apologize and beg your pardon.

And please understand, that this is my last posting on that, even if I unwillingly will have hit someone again.

Therefore I invite the moderators to edit my statement(s), if there something unwillingly is provocative.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I personally would like an Obergammerau pugio, but not being a good compuer artist, I have not been able to interest anyone in getting on board! No factual evidence on this pugio is available to say it is impossible to do, or that it will offend anyone....just seems no-one is interested in doing the work, which if I could, I would!

Heiko, no offense either meant or taken, just seems my comments were taken as offensive or dismmissed out of hand, which is not what I wanted!

Healthy disscussion is all I want to provoke here, and I feel it is good for me to hear your viewpoints, as we often only get one side of a story!

That is why I have read as much as I can about the german side of the story, and also the Russian, aswell as any other books I could find on the subject! I would not consider myself to be an expert on it, but I feel I know enough to face up to the neo's when I meet them, and they are not from Germany(so far)!

I have always had German friends and like to have a wide scope of friends, also having to work with some very narrow minded people! I would think that healthy debate discussion is good for all, and do not point the finger at anyone here, so I can only appologize if you have taken offense!

When kids me and my friends, some german would play at WW2, and they got upset thet I was always beating them, ie the Germans would always lose....... so we swapped sides, and I played the Germans!

Then they got mad that the Americans would have to lose(played by them of course)!!!! So you see, it has nothing to do with pointing fingers at anyone to blame.....except perhaps I was a little too competative and always wanted to win! Soooooo, shoot me for that crime, but not for wanting to destroy anyones reputation or whatever...... 8)

I don't think that is what I am saying here anyway, and I believe you are taking me the wrong way!

I also have Russian/German ancestry, so I do not think I can be accused of bias!

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

.......and yes there was a great deal to thank the soviet union for......but also a lot not to like about :roll:

Of course...and same goes for several countries/nations (several means more than USSR and Germany) represented in this thread.

I was born in a part of Germany, which inhabitants have the reputation to be extremely stupid (contless jokes…), so three times matches just the number of our estimated maximum number of brain cells ;-) )

Well, if missing someone's posts is stupid, then I am one :oops: , since I missed Byron's post, as Jim just pointed out.

Right, the thread began with the two prototypes, following other original finds. But after the swastika discussion, Deepeeka (and Adrian, who did all the research and designing work) decided to prefer the non-swastika Melun dagger.

Exactly right.

While the Melun being shortly before release, now the swastika question popped up again. So in this context, at this stage in a 20 pages-thread, I understood this as either putting the whole project in question again or as ‘I or we want a swastika on the Melun’.

Neither of those. The question was, could we also, along with Melun version, have another version made after one of the two prototypes produced.

A clear word like: Can we have a swastika-pattern next time or a new thread would have been better, IMHO.

Seeing the resentment the above suggestion to produce a pugio made after one of the prototypes caused, I agree with you. Therefore, I apologized for supporting that suggestion in my first post in this thread.

But to me, it seemed to shift to a moral level, blaming Germans not to be tolerant enough to allow swastikas and restrict re-enactors by that. That hits a certain nerve.

I did not ever mean any of that. I thought, the question with the Germans and all others who cannot have or do not want to have a swastika on a pugio for any reason, was settled by the production of the Melun version. I respected the choice for that version. But I do like the geometric design of the prototypes, and therefore I supported the suggestion to produce a pugio after one of them along with the Melun version.

Moral discussions are the contrary. That’s why I don’t like this shifting to morale levels.

Neither do I.

If there are so much people interested in a swastika pugio, it would have been more constructive to start a new thread, provide us with information, select a certain pattern and perhaps collect votes or pre-orders to allow Deepeeka to decide whether production will make sense…

As I just said above, I agree with you.

[hoplite14gr]

I truly believe that this forum has the most wellbehaved members in the NET.
And it is not just this thread. There were several similar threads touching the PC/non-PC issue last year.

Back on track: Well 60 years perhaps is not enough to get over a few things.
This testifies to peoples immaturity perhaps kind of agree with Jim Bowers here. Some things are better left undisterbed for the time being.

But I must say that it is unfair that "red executions squads" have got "immunity" only because they were on our side when we resisted "black execution squads".

I leave it here in respect of the forum rules and I accept that I am lucky that I can communicate with you even if we disagree.

Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

I truly believe that this forum has the most wellbehaved members in the NET.
And it is not just this thread. There were several similar threads touching the PC/non-PC issue last year.

Which is why I like to be here. So hail to our hosts, the Moderators.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes! I also would like this to just have just remained on a discussion of whether we could have variants produced in the future...

I do not believe my posts were the start of a moral argument, merely the attempt to support the argument for different varients!

As I believe I have said many times before, I would love to see the Obergammerau pugio reproduced, but as I do not have the computer graphics skills of some people, it is ignored out of hand!

Sorry to be th percieved cause of a civil war amoungst the legions here!

I will duely turn myself in for the flogging I apparently deserve! :oops: :oops:

And Maximio is not allowed to wield the whip!

[Memmia]

Yes! I also would like this to just have just remained on a discussion of whether we could have variants produced in the future...

I do not believe my posts were the start of a moral argument, merely the attempt to support the argument for different varients!

As I believe I have said many times before, I would love to see the Obergammerau pugio reproduced, but as I do not have the computer graphics skills of some people, it is ignored out of hand!

Sorry to be th percieved cause of a civil war amoungst the legions here!

I will duely turn myself in for the flogging I apparently deserve! :oops: :oops:

And Maximio is not allowed to wield the whip!

Flogging ?

I think your legion will be lucky to be spared decimation over this!!! wink:

I must admit, reading this thread, what could have been an all out almighty flame war on other forums with members going off in a huff- has been a very civilised and interesting discussion over a very sensitive issue.

Believe me, I have seen much wailing and gnashing of teeth on other forums, and had the misfortune to moderate one (not history related), where personal insults and very nasty threats and curses were dished out not only to the members, but to the member's family's too(and to their pets in some cases ! :? ) over issues far less potentially 'flammable' than those in this thread

This board is indeed very well run, and the members have respect for each other- something sadly lacking on many forums.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Is the next best thing to sliced bread......

[RUBICON]

Dear All,

I have joined this thread quite late and it has been an interesting read with valid points from all sides. I agree with Decimus, we should be allowed to have freedom of speech. Also, generations cannot be held responsible for what happened years before. Unfortunately, wounds cut deep. let me explain why. Four years ago we were involved the worldwide documentary organised by Steven Speilberg about surviving members of Schindlers list. What an amazing exercise. here are family members who watched their friends and families executed, lost with no trace and teh emotion was overwhelming. It has been 60 years!
Recently we celebrated, Anzac Day with a memorial spraypainted with swaztika's. Grown men in their 80's were ready to take up armsagainst the culprit....three 18 year old girls drunk on their way home.

And as for the japanese, trust me, here in Australia unfortunately it is still hard felt by those kept in POW camps. They have not been allowed to forget it with recent events of ex prisoners meeting with prison guards, not to mention the recent visits back to Vietnam of ex aussie soldiers.

No amount of time can heal and some take longer than others.

Unfortunately, some symbols and events will always carry a sense of hurt and no education will ever erase that. That's the horrible part, some of these people will never rest and refuse to forget what happened. I can respect that but I also sympathise that we cant move forward.

Its a difficult line to draw, moving forward and forgiving or standing still and remembering?

Its a tough call...some things are just sensitive and always will be.

[Salvianus]

I could never wear one myself, for personal reasons: I too detest its usage by the far right (as well as analogues, as already covered) to deliberately hark back to the racist power politics of the National Socialists. I'm rather fond of the shot in Indiana Jones where the symbols burns in contact with a Judao-Christian holy relic, although obviously they have an appropriate Hindu religious context unaffected by our concerns as re-enactors.

I detest seeing them in re-enactment, as I consider it wholly contaminated in the eyes of the public and all of us are tarred with the same brush.

However, a colleague of mine wears an excellent reconstruction of a Piazza Amerina mosaic tunic which happens to have swastikas on it. I'm not American & we don't have a constitution to invoke, but it's authentic, I'm not the boss of him & it stays.

I've told him straight what I think of it & he's told me straight why he wears it. He's a nice bloke and that makes all the difference to me. If he was a fascist, I would quit the group rather than stand by and let him play sick games with my hobby. If he was a dick about it, I would be a dick about it, he'd keep it & we'd just spend more of our lives arguing. As it is, I am stuck with occasionally trying to convince people neither of us are neo-nazis. He has to occasionally explain that just because we re-enact an ostensibly Christian army, not all of us are.

It's called live & let live. I just don't want anyone to wear a swastika lightly. It carries freight.

Oh, he wears phalli too, do I see a pattern emerging?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, it is a pagan army we are re-enacting.

I don't personally take any of this lightly, and will probably never wear one, as there are other pugios I prefer, (did I mention the Obergammerau?) but it is an authentic piece of roman kit, so it's use should not be ruled out.

I know I am not a facist, which is why I take the viewpoint I do. I would prefer we stripped every symbol they ever stole from them, and returned them to their proper uses, while never forgetting or belittling the harm some did, while using the same symbol.

They also used the symbol backwards, wore black, need I continue....
that is just asking for bad karma...and they got what they deserved!