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Swastikas, Roman Gear, modern reenactment (cont from market)
#31
Quote:I'm sorry, but that offends me. You are acting like I'm some idiot who knows nothing about this. Perhaps YOU should read some books too.

Hi!
That was not my intention and of course I apologize.
I have read several books on this topic and related ones. I did not deny that Stalin had plans attacking Europe. However, the argument of the pulled-down border defences for the immanent start of a war is still hotly under debate by people much more knowlegdable than I am. What I meant is, that especially such definite statements as you give them are IMO unappropriate. A definite statement about what really happened will probaly never be established, and if, it will take some time and a lot more discourse amongst the historians interested in the subject.

Read: Gerd R. Ueberschär, Der deutsche Angriff auf die Sowjetunion 1941. Die Kontroverse um die Präventivkriegsthese, Darmstadt, 1998.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#32
The "triskelon" that Matt talked about actually is trans-cultural.
Usually was the sighn of population groups in countries were the water element (rivers lakes seas) was abudand.
It was the emblem of Alkmeonides in Greece it exists in the coat of arms of the Isle of Man and Norman Sicily nad my good friend Ralf from the US showed me an asociation with New Mexico Mative Americans!
How did it came to be regarded as an "offensive" symbol?

Are we going to have problems with the law if we carry an Alkmeonid shield in an event somewhere?

Human stupidity certainly knows no bounds :!:

Kind regards
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#33
Quote:The "triskelon" that Matt talked about actually is trans-cultural.
Usually was the sighn of population groups in countries were the water element (rivers lakes seas) was abudand.
It was the emblem of Alkmeonides in Greece it exists in the coat of arms of the Isle of Man and Norman Sicily nad my good friend Ralf from the US showed me an asociation with New Mexico Mative Americans!
How did it came to be regarded as an "offensive" symbol?
Just carry a picture of the Isle of Man's flag with you, I suppose? If it were black spokes with white and red background, you might want to bear this in mind:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nynazism
Also try a Google Images search on triskelon. The results certainly ain't about ancient Greek history.
The problem is that certain brain damaged members of the human race (they were dropped on their heads as babies, it's a medical fact) have modified the Nazi symbol to suit their needs.
Quote:Human stupidity certainly knows no bounds :!:
Hence the problems with the swastika.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#34
Quote:Human stupidity certainly knows no bounds Exclamation
Only thing on this planet there'll never be a shortage of.

And on the subject of closing this thread, I don't think that needs to happen yet. This is a discussion about cultural differences, about the appreciation of a symbol. That, in my opinion, can stay clear of political and religious statements as long as everyone's careful not to pass judgement on other countries and cultures. It seems that so far most members have been patiently explaining their own views and national viewpoints, which is fine. Mutual understanding and appreciation is always encouraged.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#35
Avete omnes,

the discussion runs cross-country. I’d like to bring it back to the point:

Freedom is extremely important.

Freedom is also the freedom of others.

We are used to respect many local laws or behaviours. There are countries, which allow wearing a loaded MP in public and others, which demand a permission to wear even a blunt blade on a medieval market.

Who has a problem with Roman shields, being a centimeter smaller than the original due to some national postal reglements? Which tourist won’t remove his shoes before entering a temple in a foreign country, just because he is free to run with dirty boots across his living room at home? Or visit Deepeeka in India and kick a cow blocking the street… ;-) )

When visiting the United States and Canada many years ago, I was wondering about the big action at the immigration counter. I had to answer lots of questions and to prove that I’m just a tourist. That’s undesirable, but local rule. No problem. (Or should I have proclaimed instead that this is restriction of my personal freedom of moving around? And that I’m used to cross European borders without such a detailed examination? Silly idea…)

In one US federal state I came across, I was not allowed to drink beer in public, because I wasn’t old enough. In Germany, I was. So should I have fought for my German ‘human right’ of drinking beer? Or lament, that even the neighbour-state wasn’t so restrictive? No, I had to be content with Coke. Honestly, I didn’t suffer hard from a day without beer… (And my comfort was, having a lifetime valid German driver’s licence in my pocket instead - priceless in that state).

So Germany has some law which won’t harm or touch any other country, but is valid within our borders. Some symbols are forbidden and others not. That’s not perfect, but that’s life.

I’m really glad that the Romans never used red stars or hammer and sickle so we can completely skip any problem related to that :wink: .

Again: No one blamed international re-enactors to be a Nazi or wants to forbid swastikas worldwide. That’s why I don’t see how American re-enactors have to ‘defend’ their freedom of bearing swastikas when they are a few thousand kilometres away from Central Europe. At home, anyone can do what he is allowed to do. And if he visits us, he’ll have to respect our law like any tourist will have to do in any county. That’s all.

If we want Deepeeka making an ornamented pugio for all RAT members, we need to consider any important law. If someone prefers a version which is limited to a certain group of RAT members, he might honestly confess his personal priority and motive rather than blaming the others for their ‘un-free’ local law.

So if someone says:
I / we want a swastika on the Melun pugio.
I / we want it, even if it’s unlikely that it was original.
I / we want it, even if other members are not allowed to buy it.
That’s clear.

Normally, the answer would have been: Sorry, not proven by finds.
But here, the discussion is shifted to a moral level, claiming restriction and oppression…

So what’s if someone wants a Gallic F helmet, but with the Niedermörmter mouse and loaf ornament, because it suits his personal taste?
Will it be sufficient to point out, that there is no evidence for a mice and loaf Gallic F?
Or will we discuss local bread prices and laws about laboratory mice then? :lol:

Between comrades, I would expect that the first model will be ‘general’ type, to offer the chance of buying a decorated pugio to as many members as possible. Later versions may follow, which are restricted in certain parts of the world and not available to all – I have no problems with that… Sorry, this is becoming a battle without an actual war :roll:
Greetings from germania incognita

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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#36
Ave Cornelius Quintus!
So, in a nutshell, you are saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!" Correct? :-) )
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
a.k.a.: Marsh Wise
Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt

"A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired." -- Alexander Hamilton

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress.... But then I repeat myself." ~Mark Twain

[img size=150]http://www.romanobritain.org/Graphics/marsh_qr1.png[/img]
(Oooh, Marshall, you cannot use an icky modern QR code, it is against all policies and rules.)
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#37
"I’m really glad that the Romans never used red stars or hammer and sickle so we can completely skip any problem related to that . "

Well it is hardly a less problematic area of discussion, and was used to reinforce an idea, not wanting to change the subject at all Heiko! No more
than "kicking a cow in India" :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#38
I think that the discussion here has been good, although some people write with more emotion than others. It is good to read different viewpoints, and you don't have to agree with them all.

In the USA one of the fundamentals about personal liberty is: 'Sir, when you conflict another's personal liberty both have reached the limit.' (aka, your personal liberty stops before it hits my nose.) Sadly, even in the USA, this is no longer taught or practiced.

Do various people who are not nazi extremists hold the broken armed cross in high regard? Of course they do.

The 45th Division removed theirs because the government of the USA planned to get involved in WW2 and did not want to have the same symbol as a future enemy (even though it is reversed) on the uniform. Current revisionist history can say other reasons, but I was able to read the notes of the commander's discussion in the archives.

Does everyone want to rewrite history? History is just one person view of an ongoing story.

I usually refuse to be a moderator in any thread where I am involved in the discussion. Since I started this marginal and touchy discussion, I don't feel I should be moderating it.

I do ask people to re-read their posts and remove emotions that are extreme, even if you personally feel them, and to respect the right of others to disagree with your viewpoint, without become personally offended.

Thank you

Charles
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
moderator, Roman Army Talk
link to the rules for posting
[url:2zv11pbx]http://romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22853[/url]
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#39
Quote:I do ask people to re-read their posts and remove emotions that are extreme, even if you personally feel them, and to respect the right of others to disagree with your viewpoint, without become personally offended.
Well that's the problem really, I think, Charles. There's possibly no other symbol on Earth that has the same effect, and I doubt your request will have much effect on at least some for their own good and understandable reasons.

We're not Romans, we're modern people living in the 21st Century, and so are those who might see our gear. You can't suspend the real modern world from anything we do.

Within the wider context of the discussion, what's the reaction to the phallic pendant, or fascinum? Has anyone ever had a problem with that? It's a relevant question because it's a taboo image to many. It's one thing to see it in a great work of art, but entirely another when a bloke walks amongst the public with a penis hanging from his belt.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#40
Quote:Perhaps, but Japan gets to act like nothing happened and yet, Germany has to CONSTANTLY have it shoved in their faces? I think not.

I don't know about that...Earlier this year the Japanese PM visited one of their nations most notorious war shrines, within were entombed several bonefied war criminals. China was outraged, and for a few months their diplomatic relations had gone down in flames. I think it's like much of Europe; China suffered the most from Japan's aggression in terms of slaughter and occupation, so maybe it's similar for the chinese as it is for europeans?

I think we N. Americans have a very unique perspective on the war, with a few tiny excpetions, our real estate wasn't really harmed. Just our fighting men.

I digress, but I think that there are also a LOT less people doing japanese reenactment than there are German, so these issues don't come up nearly as much. Thus quantitatively, we see the "Germans" having such issues shoved in their faces a lot more in non-German nations than we do with the Japanese. Plus, we're exposed a lot more to European nations in Roman Reenacting (for obvious reasons), than we are with say...China, Manchuria, the Phillipines, etc. etc. It might be a different story if we had 10 - 20 chinese roman reenactors on this forum, we may indeed see more japanese related tom foolery. Smile

Quote:Dude, I had some people come up to me once and tell me "You portray the Romans? Why THEY killed out Lord Jesus Christ! How could you" !?! :-0 I don't really do this for others. Not to really edjukate the publick... If I happen to do an event where the public is at, well peachy, but it ain't for them. They think we're whacky. And anyway, it ain't a pugio... Hell, I already have them on my gladius... and yeah, I'm ready for questions...

No doubt! I mean, how many people know it was auxilliaries at the time and not legionaries? Point that I was trying to make is allowing for people's sensitivies to certain subjects to influence your decision when wearing something. I personally would not want to be the one having to explain why I have swastikas on my gear to a WW 2 vet, or worse, someone who's parents or grandparents were in a concentration camp.

I don't reenact to edumacate the public either, but it is one of the results of me doing events, and I'm fully aware of that. That's why I guess for me I try and do things right, keeping in mind people's reaction to what I may be doing. Luckily I haven't been approached with the "You guys killed Jesus" line yet. I'm not sure how many people actually know who did it, though with Mel's latest movie I'm sure a lot more now! 8)

In anycase, I HATE being PC...and I hate it when people are overly sensitive to things. But for something that in my mind is still recent (60 years is still fresh, IMO), I'd rather avoid doing anything to irk anyone who may have some kind of experience with it. I don't care if they are German, Spanish, American, or what.

I think that's part of the issue though, is that WW 2 is still a fairly recent event. It still has repercussions that are being felt even today, so resurrecting anything that has to do with it's negative side is going to raise a few hockles. Why bother? When it comes to insulting or angering people who may have lived through one of modern history's darkest times, I'd rather avoid that at all costs. Who am I to consider otherwise? I'm just some guy who really has no clue what it was like...I've just read some books, talked to a few vets and seen some movies on the subject. :wink:

BTW - Panzer Commander, the Memoirs of Colonel Hans Von Luck is also a GREAT book on WW 2.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#41
Quote: It's one thing to see it in a great work of art, but entirely another when a bloke walks amongst the public with a penis hanging from his belt.

Hmmm...I hope you aren't talking about me walking down the street drunk.

:lol:

Though much of that type of artwork is usually in "special" galleries open only to "of age" members of the public right?

And if you think about it, the penis has caused more havoc and trouble in the history of the world than the swastika.

In fact, remind me if I become an evil DICKtator to use the penis as the emblem of my empire.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#42
Quote:Avete omnes,
So if someone says:
I / we want a swastika on the Melun pugio.
I / we want it, even if it’s unlikely that it was original.
I / we want it, even if other members are not allowed to buy it.
That’s clear.

Heiko,for the third (?) time, no one ever brought the idea of having or not having the swastika on the MELUN pugio, except you. Melun pugio did not have a swastika - why you keep bringing it up? The suggestion was for the test version of pugio, not the Melun one. Please the pics from the Limited Pugio thread below.

The test version with the swastika was copied from the original, which had the swastika. Again, Melun pugio has nothing to do with it. Melun pugio was introduced - and actually is being made - for the very reason of not having swastika, and thus being acceptable by all.

Please read my post above in this thread, since you keep repeating things which no one besides you is affirming.
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#43
Quote:Though much of that type of artwork is usually in "special" galleries open only to "of age" members of the public right?
No mate, the only time I saw that was in the Naples museum with the graphic depictions of what was on offer at Pompeii's brothel. Penis talismans are absolutely everywhere.
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#44
Quote:I’m really glad that the Romans never used red stars or hammer and sickle so we can completely skip any problem related to that :wink: .

Well, since you did bring it up, lets not forget that if not for the soldiers fighting and dying under the banner with the hammer and sickle, including my not so distant relatives, perhaps having the swastika around would actually be a requirement now in a good chunk of the world.
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#45
Quote:No mate, the only time I saw that was in the Naples museum with the graphic depictions of what was on offer at Pompeii's brothel. Penis talismans are absolutely everywhere.

No kidding? Someone told me there was a seperate area for it...but perhaps that was in a N. American museum.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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