Swastikas, Roman Gear, modern reenactment (cont from market)

[Caius Fabius]

The conversation has been as to why Deepeeka would or would not make a copy of a pugio with a Swastika handle that really looked nice, available to reeneactors.

Some people in Europe are not allowed to display the Swastika, because of something that happened 60-70 years ago. The conversation was moved to off topic, to keep the original discussion clear and because moderators felt it was better here.



Cornelius Quintus wrote:
Ave Charles,

first: I personally have no problems with a swastika on a reproduction. But I really don’t like having a single one in my home. In Germany, the ‘new’ meaning given to the symbol by the Nazi party dominates and superimposes any other historical meaning.

Right, ‘defending’ an acient symbol of luck is one idea. On the other hand here in Germany, the ‘Hakenkreuz’ represents 60 Millions of dead, millions of civilians in Europe, at least 6 Millions of Jews and others systematically murdered in the holocaust, handled as ‘sub-humans’ and their bodies being industrially recycled – until making lampshades of their skins.
Also remember the thousands of brave American soldiers, dying all the way from Omaha Beach to Berlin in the attempt to end that mass murdering as soon as possible.
That’s no thing to be forgotten in just 60 years. In modern Germany, the human dignity of the victims (and many of them and their families are still alive) is far more important than the ‘dignity’ of a symbol.

Here’s an attempt to provide you an understanding of the common feeling.
Imagine yourself selling Osama statuettes near Ground Zero, while telling the people, that many years passed since that September day and you mainly want to point out the traditional Islamic way of wearing a beard… Wink


1. Anyone who wants to sell Usama bin Ladin statuettes near Ground Zero in the USA would be allowed to as soon as soon as he got the proper tax and vending permits. It is called FREEDOM of SPEECH/EXPRESSION and is guarenteed under out Constitution. Anyone who attacked him would be a criminal. It wold be in poor taste, but it would be legal.

2. My father fought and killed soldiers of the Third Reich in World War 2. They were men doing their duty. They were not criminals. If the Axis had won, the Russians would have been the ones guilty of war crimes against Jews and other minorities, and the Americans guilty of running concentration camps.

3. By making the symbol outlawed, it has more power and instead of fading into history remains a living rallying point for all sorts of people with all sorts of agendas.

Caius Fabius
Charles Foxtrot

[Virilis]

3. By making the symbol outlawed, it has more power and instead of fading into history remains a living rallying point for all sorts of people with all sorts of agendas.

Exactly to the point! In my opinion as long as this symbol is forbidden it will own this "forbidden fruit" meaning and be even more appealing to some lunatics. I even think that if it is allowed more widely in popular culture and people would understand in that way the colourful (and sometimes sinister, yes) historic roots of this ancient symbol it will "water" the shock effect of this symbol and make it more or less useless to those nazist groups.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is my feeling as well, but I can also understand the sensitivity of the Germans to the symbol! And others.....

But to make a ghost go away, you have to look at it, or something along those lines.

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[size=150:25xl0tio]S[/size]orry, I just like Swastikas :-0 And yeah, I do reenact WWII German, so it doesn't bother me. Was Hitler a good guy? No! Were all Germans or German soldiers Nazis? NO. You couldn't be in the Nazi Party and be in the German military. Anyway, this is history! I wasn't there, it happened 19 years before I was born. :evil:

As to the use in Roman reenacting, well, so what. They are apart of history and I don't tell people what to do, I don't want them to tell me how to live my life. And no, I am not politically correct. Ack! If I wanted to legislate everything that offended me, I'd go nuts.

Why does everyone feel the need to try and tell others how to live :-( (

[Tarbicus]

1. Anyone who wants to sell Usama bin Ladin statuettes near Ground Zero in the USA would be allowed to as soon as soon as he got the proper tax and vending permits. It is called FREEDOM of SPEECH/EXPRESSION and is guarenteed under out Constitution. Anyone who attacked him would be a criminal. It wold be in poor taste, but it would be legal.

Not a chance. (changed to) IMHO. There would be a near riot by at least members of the general public, and the guy's license would be revoked under any public safety legislation that every and any prosecutor in New York could find.

Within 24 hours his operation would be ostensibly shut down (if he was still in one piece) and then the litigation could start. But at least he would have been shut down in the meantime.

There's a difference between freedom of speech in principal and practice. To prove it, go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lMVWRcrRkY

Those guys in the video didn't even write anything religious on the cars, nor referenced 9/11.

[hoplite14gr]

Agree with Marsh.
If we follow the "supersensitive aproach" hoplites from at least 7 city states could not be reenancted or you would get arrested for reeancting them.

Th whole thing is rediculus

Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

It's the general public, not understanding what the swastika is or who used it throughout history, who will react.

Folks, we've been over this several times. When even some individuals from the general public complain to organisers about 'Nazi-Romans' who carry such symbopls (on clothing, shields, whatever), these individuals may be dead wrong, but still the organisers will have to react to these complaints.

Meaning that clothing must stay at home, shields are re-painted (it happened!) or the items must forever stay at home.

Folks, I know swastikas don't mean we're nazis, but it's not the time yet to use them as decoration. That's too bad, but there it is. I fear that Deepeeka would be put in a very bad light should they make such items.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Trust those dumb %$#*ers to pull a stunt like that! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I mean the video, just in case someone thinks otherwise!

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It's the general public, not understanding what the swastika is or who used it throughout hgistory, who will react....

...Meaning that clothing must stay at home, shields are re-painted (it happened!) or the items must forever stay at home.

I humbly disagree. Okay, in your country, yes, but in other countries.... maybe not. I personally, I believe that in reenacting when we DO interact w/ the public, it is a duty to destroy false notions and inform the peasantry. To be "historical mythbusters" if you will. How better to do this than jolt them w/ something they THINK they know?
Best, Marsh

[Jona Lendering]

We're not doomed to accept taboos from the past; we can take something back from the past. Two weeks ago, the city of Rotterdam remembered that the Nazi's bombed its city center. A line of floodlights was put on during the night to show the limit of the fire zone: here you have an idea of what it looked like (and here is even more).

Several Dutch newspapers wrote, after it had happened, that it was exactly like the Cathedral of Light that Speer had used in Nuremberg, and said that it was good that a symbol once created by the Nazi's could also be used to remember the atrocities.

Seventy, sixty years after WW2, I personally think it is about time to take a more relaxed attitude to swastikas and other NSDAP symbols, although I sympathize with people like my father, who as a boy found himself in the midst of the Battle of Arnhem, or my rabbi, who sometimes says that he "was liberated in Bergen-Belsen" and never mentions the place where he was before (probably Auschwitz). Their pain is real, but can not be the only standard for judging the past.

[Ironhand]

I know most everyone here knows the history behind the swastika. Something not everyone might be aware of is that it is still a common symbol used by practioners of Asatru. Its a shame that it cannot be worn for either reenactment or religious purposes without automatically being judged as a racist and having to justify oneself to a disbelieving and often overly judgemental populace.

I agree with you 100% Jona and I only wish more people would have your attitude. It would be nice to be able to wear it without having to risk losing a security clearance or having to explain myself. Hopefully people are a bit more open minded with the issue than here in the U.S., but without more knowledge I would probably doubt that.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Marsh,

That’s exactly the point. To avoid further mistaking: The matter is NOT forbidding swastikas in other countries or blaming other people for using or liking them.

The matter is: How is it handled in Germany or Austria and especially by our law.

It is our history, our bad heritage. The living victims are our friends and neighbours, the new Nazis are our problem, and the common dislike of swastikas is our taste.

So everybody in the world feel free to see it another way, concerning himself. But philosophical ideas what could be different or better won’t help. Mostly they are stated by Non-Germans, Non-Europeans and/or young people without direct personal experiences or contact with real witnesses of that time.

It’s easy to forget or forgive bad deeds when you were not personally involved. But that won’t change victim’s minds or national laws.

The Nazi Party not only caused the war (with still many honourable soldiers in the ranks of the army, not all Nazi killers). But they caused the Holocaust industrial annihilation of civilians, including recycling their bodies. Incredible horror, similarities only in Stalin’s Russia…

You can’t wipe that out. So the context of the swastika will be different within Germany and parts of Europe or other parts of the world. Noticing a swastika in India will be not the same than around here.

In the thread about Deepeeka’s ornamented special edition pugio two interesting facts appeared:

First, the Melun dagger which serves as a pattern, originally seems to have had no surviving swastika. And because only a minority of finds featured that symbol, a reconstruction with that swastika would follow a most unlikely appearance. If one wants a swastika because the original had one, this is probably the wrong dagger project to add such a detail.

Second, the US military unit Charles is connected with, gave up the swastika insignia by themselves by the same reasons Germans would do it today. And inspite of so much time pssed in the meantime, they did not return to their former symbol yet:

"For the first 15 years of its existence, members of the 45th Infantry Division proudly wore on their left shoulders an ancient American Indian symbol of good luck, most commonly referred to as the swastika. The insignia served as recognition of the great number of Native Americans proudly serving in the 45th Infantry Division. The yellow swastika on a square background of red symbolized the Spanish Heritage of the 4 Southwestern states that made up the membership of the 45th—Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, and Arizona. A similar symbol was adopted by the Nazi party in the late 1920’s, and as the N.S.D.A.P. rose to power in 1933 the symbol became so closely associated with fascist socialism that it had to be abandoned as the insignia of the 45th Infantry Division. For many months division members wore no insignia, while the design for a new emblem was being explored. The 45th Infantry Division held a contest to assist in selection of the new insignia and many designs were submitted. The contest was overseen by a board of officers who eventually determined the Thunderbird would become the new insignia of the 45th Infantry Division." So the 45th haven't actually worn this symbol for around seventy years.

Theoretical optimum and status quo can be very, different – and sometimes due to subjective reasons.

Yes, the situation concerning the ancient international symbol of luck is unjust. But there’s not only the hijacked meaning, but also some more than ‘unjust’ treatment to millions of humans, which had not been overcome today.

Does an American for example really expect, the German parliament will change major laws and re-educate the society’s grown moral sense – just to make it comfortable for Roman Re-enactors to by and wear swastika decorated items? Or tell the still living victims: Stop lamenting – live is hard and everyone has the human right of hobby-fun?

Not to step into modern politics. But there are some keywords you better not mention to inhabitants of democratic states, without receiving an abrasive: ‘Shut up – a bloody stranger like you can’t understand that!’– or a much harder rebuff…

That’s why I agree with you, Marsh. Hints and suggestions are (mostly) welcome.
But if our society decides to be very restrictive concerning Nazi symbols and anything looking alike within our borders, and that decision is basing on the probably biggest catastrophe in mankind’s history, please respect it.

We are used to respect that people won’t eat certain things due to religious reasons. Perhaps not understandable for others, but serious for the special persons. This discussion is a spin-off from a Deepeeka project, which intended to make the pugio available to re-enactors worldwide without a national handicap. And for certain reasons, Deepeeka also decided to produce one special edition model in a very small number (about 100).

Some of us spent days and weeks during the last year in helping Deepeeka improving their products. Not to design expensive custom made items, but high quality affordable equipment to many re-enactors.

So I really don’t understand why there’s such an uprising now to force Deepeeka manufacturing a different model, that will cause problems for RAT-comrades in Germany or Austria and probably not be welcome on many events in other European counties? Especially, when the original didn’t have such a symbol? :roll:

[Tarbicus]

I took my parents around the BM and they were pretty surprised when I showed them the symbol on a few Roman pieces there and explained about how Hitler essentially hijacked an ancient symbol, etc. Afterwards, we passed an antiquities shop across the road from the BM and I pointed out some nice pieces in the shop, including a swastika brooch.

I don't have a problem with SS re-enactors who probably know a lot more about the reality of the SS than most, and going by their websites won't tolerate the hobby being used for the promotion of politics. But the real public perception is http://theminiaturespage.com/polls/talk ... 609&page=1 and http://www.matakishi.com/news.htm . In truth the Roman legionary was hardly a saint, and I find it a bit curious that we've never, AFAIK, seen a discussion of Roman atrocities (those poor Carthaginians). Has it ever been presented to the public as a topic?

Like Heiko, I've been to real concentration camps (Auschwitz and Birkenau) and it leaves a very lasting impression, so I'd personally never want to wear a swastika on my kit, but that's my choice (and also why I declined my Mum's offer to buy the brooch for my birthday). But until Hitler's ghost is truly laid to rest (which doesn't seem likely for quite some time) I don't see it being particularly acceptable to the general public, especially here in Europe it seems.

Here's what the front pages of the British newspapers look like when a member of the Royal family forgets to engage his brain before a fancy dress party: http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/images ... _Harry.jpg

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Ave Cornelius!

I understand how Germans feel, it's just I don't agree there is a need for them to. At least not most of them. Were you a member of the NSDAP? I bet not. We both know that most Germans weren't and yes, the Party DID have a major part to play int he start of the war, but... it would have happened ANYWAY. Hell, when the Wehrmacht started Operation Barbarossa, they found that the Soviets had pulled down all their border defences in preparation to attck West :-0 Why am I rambling? I dunno, it seems to me that EVERY single time WWII is brought up, Germans have their noses rubbed inshit over it. Hell, in Japan, they act like it never happened except for the evyil USA dropping an A-Bomb on them. To me, they pretty much got away w/ starting the war in the Pacific.

When I say I reenact WWII German, I tell people this: I do it to honor the men who fought on both sides of the war and gave their all for their country. You can't fault a man for that! Yes, you can fault an evil government, but I am sorry, to me, WWII was a tragedy, just like WWI. It happened, a LOT of people suffered and died for it. It's time to stop pointing fingers, rubbing whole nations noses in dog shit and to move on.

Last I'd say, freedom is more important... you can't schedule it, you can't regulate it, you just are (or are not free). I will stop bloviating now. I promise not to wear a hakenkreuz in Germany, okay :-) ) When you come here to the West Marches... feel free. How's that?
Best, Marsh

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Marsh,

I completely agree with you.

And I can’t imagine any seroius WW2 Waffen-SS re-enctors performing mass executions or killer squads.

But within Germany, you can’t devide the somewhat ‘clean’ military part from the ‘dirty’ mass murder. Willingly, knowingly or not, the whole state worked as an organism then.

So if we can both agree, that there are different rules within Germany and parts of Europe, that’s fine.

Like Jim wrote above: Hitler’s ghost has to be laid to rest first, but that will take more than another lifetime, I fear.

And yes, freedom is extremely important and should not be regulated to death. But during the past years, more and more new laws are restricting it, pretending to protect the remaining freedom against certain modern dangers… More and more law-free locations are installed in the western world. Our minister of the interior recently suggested a new kind of virtual mass searching concerning private homes by using ‘official’ trojan malware. Of course without informing the citizens afterwards and without any suspicion needed. Just to find a possible terrorist by the way…and collect and store other data (like ordering a swastika-dagger via e-mail :lol: )