Which Deepeeka Balteus sword belt is best for my impression?

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

Which Deepeeka (or other manufacturer) Balteus would be best for my Tribune impression? My period is very late Republic to very early Empire (approximately 60BC to 10BC). Most of the belts I've seen seem to be for later periods than mine. After researching this... I 'think' a narrow belt is the way to go.

I’m looking to attach my Mainz gladius directly to the Balteus, as opposed to slinging it over my shoulder with a Baldric, which after research seems to be the best way for my impression and time period (please correct me if I’m wrong).

If no pre-made belt is really right… please let me know which buckle, terminator, and plates you’d suggest.

I was also thinking of making a Parazonium and hanging that off a set of frogs on a second belt with an apron (as opposed to a Pugio). Statues show the Praetorian Guardsmen wearing a Balteus with an apron in combination with a cuirass and attic helmet. Thoughts?

Note I haven't changed the hilt to an eagle's head yet but, I am actually almost done with my attic helmet (post coming soon!) of course, then comes the subarmor and boots (will it never end??? :wink: )

[Peroni]

The bronze Castillejo plates with brass backing possibly? (See Bishop and Coulston)

also this republican period buckle and hingeplate Both the hinge plate and buckle ring from Spain IIRC (See Bishop and Coulston).

[Matthew Amt]

I don't think a tribune would wear a plated military belt at all! You need a cloth tie belt for your tunic, and one of those narrow sash belts tied over your cuirass. The sword either hangs on a shoulder baldric (that's just another Hellenistic feature) or is carried in the hand.

Frankly, I don't really like any of the complete Deepeeka belts, though several of them have some usable parts.

Matthew

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

Thanks for the buckle and plate suggestion!

Concerning the sash belt, are you speaking of the belt tied into an officer’s knot?

Concerning the baldric… I was under the impression that the baldric wasn’t used until sometime after 79AD and therefore would be incorrect for my impression’s time period.

On another post link from old RAT Sulla Felix said

The two belt rig seems to gradually go out of use/fashion from mid-first century AD, moving to a single belt with pugio and apron and a baldric (think this is the right term) for the gladius.

& Mathew Amt said

Other folks have mentioned that there isn't much evidence for the shoulder baldric in the mid-first century AD, only later. So we should lean more towards putting the gladius on the belt. Otherwise, yup, we pretty much go with what you said

Was your suggestion different becuase of a Tribune's impression vs. a Legionary impression and the statues we were examining in the pervious thread?

Obviously, a Tribune would not have gone into battle without a proper helmet or sword so, I guess I’m trying to figure out if he would have tossed on a narrow military plated belt and attached the sword directly to it or would an officer, say under Julius Caesar’s command at Battle of Alesia, have used a baldric?

[Matthew Amt]

Concerning the sash belt, are you speaking of the belt tied into an officer’s knot?

Right. Who would like to start arguing about what color it was, by the way? (Hee hee hee....)

Concerning the baldric… I was under the impression that the baldric wasn’t used until sometime after 79AD and therefore would be incorrect for my impression’s time period....
Was your suggestion different becuase of a Tribune's impression vs. a Legionary impression and the statues we were examining in the pervious thread?

Right, as I recall we were just talking about legionaries in that discussion. But aristocratic officers followed a different set of guidelines, as it were, dictated by strong Hellenistic tradition. Since Classical and Hellenistic swords were hung from shoulder baldrics, I'd have to guess that was how a Roman tribune would wear his. There may even be sculptural evidence for that, and I could swear I've seen such things, but no idea where.

Obviously, a Tribune would not have gone into battle without a proper helmet or sword so, I guess I’m trying to figure out if he would have tossed on a narrow military plated belt and attached the sword directly to it or would an officer, say under Julius Caesar’s command at Battle of Alesia, have used a baldric?

My guess is that an officer in full Hellenistic kit would have had an appropriate sword worn on a baldric to go with it when necessary. He certainly had the money to afford whatever he needed, after all. I suppose it's possible that a tribune might have had an alternate battle kit more like the grunts or centurions, with mail and helmet and weapons more like the "standard issue" stuff, but I think it's a stretch to propose that without some evidence, and more of a stretch to say that he would mix items from the 2 different kits. These guys were really conservative and tradition-minded, so I tend to be very careful about any sort of suppostion or conjecture about them and their stuff.

Matthew

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

THANKS!

Okay, one last 'opinion' question (as I’m sure there’s no evidence for this but) … if I was to carry both a Parazonium & a gladius on my body, would you suggest that I hang the Parazonium from the Baldric and attach the Mainz gladius to a sword belt or the other way around?

Obviously, statues show the Hellenistic Parazonium held in hand like a scepter when posing for a portrait but, would the logic be to hang the Parazonium from a baldric so hands would be free… and then if a Tribune decided to also strap on a gladius when heading into battle… would he most likely toss the gladius on a belt?

I don't know for sure if I'll make the Parazonium... if not I'll hang the gladius from a bladric but, I'm pretty sure I'll make it after the attic helmet is complete (maybe in a week, I'm on the crest now). I'm planning on using a Rodell dagger as the base of a Parazonium, changing hilt and handle (eagle's head?), and fabracating a scabbard to match an original Parazonium example I've seen and statues.


Parazonium
[url:4xijqw7l]http://www.congiano.com/Extras/Recreation/parazoniumagoraathens1a.jpg[/url]

[url:4xijqw7l]http://www.congiano.com/Extras/Recreation/Parazoniummaureliusloricatadet5a.jpg[/url]

[url:4xijqw7l]http://www.congiano.com/Extras/Recreation/Parazonium_of_Germanicus.jpg[/url]

[Doc]

Antonius,

I live in Brooklyn. Where about are you in Long Island?

PM me so that we could talk more.

Paolo

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

I've done quite of bit of research on the Roman Baldric, the only example of an original one that I could find, is this drawing:

Would this be correct for my time period, with both the over the shoulder sling as well as the belt around the waist? Or is this from a later time period?



Also, this pre-made "Roman Baldric" looks honestly nothing like the drawing above, the buckle looks very different and the waist portion seems to have a hook like clasp... is this correct? Is this based on a different find?

Link:
[url:e6bs5670]http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id190.html[/url]

[Peroni]

Or is this from a later time period?

Yes it is. It is typically from the third century AD. The scabbard slides didn't come into use until late second century earliest AFAIK.

The colour photos show a cavalry/horse harness fitment, and I've not seen a square shaped buckle like the one shown from a Roman context. It looks modern to me.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve again!

Would the design below be a correct baldric for my late Republican early Empire officer's impression?

Obviously, I'm not going to buy this one, the buckle is modern, the Hollywood "brown=old" is a pet-peeve of mine, and please ignore the sword but... is the overall design correct?

I could make my own belt, split it at the end, and purchase the Roman Buckle below from La Wren's Nest... I could also add disks as decorations as well.

Baldric link: too large to post
[url:323m6s3n]http://www.realarmorofgod.com/shop/images/ACC2011-Roman-Baldric.JPG[/url]

La Wren's Nest Buckle:


Also, if anyone can post an original or a drawing of an original Republican baldric that would be cool.

[Peroni]

Also, if anyone can post an original or a drawing of an original Republican baldric that would be cool.

Plain strap.. no fittings on baldrics. The evidence we have for buckles is in the form of a possible method of attaching the sword (Very small buckles) to the strap. Also there are small buckle finds associated with swords from Herculaneum and Vindonnissa IIRC. These were for attaching the sword to a belt.


The buckle photo you posted is for a balteus militare. Baldrics don't need any buckles or fitments :wink:

[sophus_tree]

Hi there!

Can I ask where you got your griffins?

-MSS

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Hi there!

Can I ask where you got your griffins?

-MSS

Salve,

Honestly, no one seemed to make them, or the Roman Style griffin so... I made them myself using cold casting.

Note... for real authenticity I should have carved a negative image into stone with a hammer & chisel, melted down a few gold bars and poured the molten metal in... sorry but, that's just a wee bit beyond my abilities so I had to go with a more modern equivalent. :roll:

It really wasn't that hard and I actually never did anything like this before.

I picked up two griffin bookends, pressed them into plasteline clay (the stuff never hardens and works best when warm), mixed 1 part bronze powder with three parts bonding agent (in retrospect, I should have done a 1:1 ratio, they would look like solid bronze if I did but, I didn't have enough powder) and let it dry.

This is the whole process:

[Chuck Russell]

wow that pretty nice! where did you buy the stuff from to mkae them?

[sophus_tree]

Dude! That is so cool!

What is the cold-cast goop that you use called? (I know there are a couple different kinds. . .)

-MSS