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Discussing Roman drill commands (NO HOLDS BARRED!!)
#1
Hi all, this thread is set up to discuss Roman commands.

What to discuss: (NO HOLDS BARRED)
* drill commands, tactical commands, any commands.
* what do we find in the written sources. I'd like to start off with Maurice since that obviously the longest list, but everybody who can add more is welcome.
* any period that we want, from 300BC for all I know until well into the Byzantine period. This is very useful to compare the basic commands, as I’ve learnt. So you can bring Polybius and Vegetius and I’ll bring Maurice. :wink:
* especially, I would say, the use of these commands for us, as re-enactors. I would like very much to see command lists from every group, and discuss each command in turn.
* what we miss – it’s no secret that many of the basic commands are missing, for instance ‘left turn’ and basics like that. We can discuss of course educated guesses here.
* Latin grammar. Although better grammar does not make a command more authentic (that can only be safeguarded by a written source), grammar can make commands more understandable.
* the value of the sources themselves. That's very interesting but not for this section - new threads can be added to the Military History & Archaeology section.

If anyone can add more to these do's and do'nt's, be my guest, it's not a private party.

OK? Let's begin.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#2
OK, first installment:

STRATEGIKON COMMANDS EXPLAINED / DISCUSSED
Maurikios (Maurice), commands from: Maurikios: Strategikon, Handbook of Byzantine Military Strategy, trans. by George T. Dennis, (Philadelphia 1984).

A disclaimer from the start – as I said above, I’m NOT going to discuss Maurice himself or the Strategikon here (whether he wrote it or not or when, etc.), but I should add the note (to those not familiar with the Strategikon) that most of the manual is about cavalry, and that several commands are especially for cavalry. My personal opinion is, however, that all commands are usable for infantry, if not to use them, then to compare them and to draw material from them for educated guesswork. But for the specific discussion about the source I welcome a new thread. :wink

[size=150:2svk2czd]Drill of the heavy infantry (book XII part B, ch. 14-17). [/size]

Forming up

Silentium (Silence)
Mandata Captate (Observe orders)
Non vos Turbatis (Don’t worry)
Ordinem Servate (Keep your position)
Bando Sequute (Follow the standard)
Nemo Demittat Bandum et Inimicos seque (Don’t leave the standard and pursue the enemy)

Marching towards the enemy

Ad Octo (By eights)
Exi (March out)
Move (March)
State (Halt)
Largia ad ambas partes (Thin out the line (move to both sides))
Intra (Enter (increase formation depth))
Acia in acia (Files in files)
Ad conto clina, move (To the right, face, march)
Ad scuto clina, move (To the left, face, march)
Undique servate (face in all directions)
Depone ad dextra (change front to the right)
Depone ad senestra (change front to the left)
Redi (Resume front)
Serva milix ordinem positum (Soldier, keep your position)
Et tu bandifer ipsum serve (Standard bearer, keep your position)
Medii partitis (Divide in the middle)
Ad difallangiam (Form double phalanx)
Primi state (First rank halt)
Secundi exite (Second rank march out)
Reverte (Return)
Iunge (Close ranks)
Muta locum (Change places (front to rear))
Transforma (About face. (turn in place))
Ad Fulcon (Form the fulcum)
Dirige Frontem (Straighten out the front)

Facing the enemy

Parati (Ready)
Adiuta.. (Help us..)
.. Deus (.. O God)

Nobiscum (Deus) ((God be) with us (battle cry)
Kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy (thrice, when marching from the camp))

[size=150:2svk2czd]Drill of the cavalry (book III, ch. 2-5)[/size]

Largiter ambula (Open order, march)
Silentium (Silence)
Nemo demittat (Do not fall back)
Nemo antecedat bandum (Do not advance in front of the standard)
Sic venias vero aequalis facies (Advance even with the front rank)
Bandum capta (Keep your eyes on the standard)
Ipso seque cum bando, milix (Follow it with your company soldier)
Talis est comodum miles barbate (This is how a brave soldier should act)
Si vero bandum demittes eo modo non vero vices (If you leave the standard, you will not be victorious)
Serva milix ordinem positum (Soldier, keep to your assigned position)
Ipsum serve et tu bandifer (Standard bearer, keep to your assigned position)
Sive pugnas sive seques inimicus sive aequalis facies, non forte minaret ut ne sparges tu suum ordinem (Whether fighting or pursuing the enemy or in the front ranks, don’t charge out and cause your ranks to be broken up)
Move (March)
Sta (Halt)
Equaliter ambula (In line. March)
Largiter ambula (Open order. March)
Ad latus stringe (By the flank, close. (close ranks))
Ad decarchas (To the dekarchs)
Ad pentarchas (To the Pentarchs)
Iunge (Close ranks)
Suscipe (First line falls back in second)
Percute (Charge)
Cursu mina (Charge at a gallop)
Cum ordine seque (Follow in order (ranks closed))
Cede (Give way (fall back in open order))
Torna mina (Turn. Threaten (wheel back))
Depone senestra (To the left. Change front)
Depone dextra (To the right. Change front)
Transforma (About face. (turn in place))
Transmuta (Change place (march to the back))
Exi (Head out)
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#3
Well done, Robert, Laudes.

As you know, Maurice is also used in Comitatus, as it is the nearest source for our period (4th-5thC), with as few additions as possible. The use of unclassical grammar suggests to me it that it reflects actual usage and perhaps long usage.

We don't march in time, but timing our steps when advancing in foulkon just happens naturally.

We choose State rather than Sta

If folk are interested, I'd recommend:

John Conyard's essay on our use of drill

cheers Big Grin
Salvianus: Ste Kenwright

A member of Comitatus Late Roman Historical Re-enactment Group

My Re-enactment Journal
       
~ antiquum obtinens ~
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#4
Before embarking on listing our sources, etc., what are your thoughts on sources that are not expressly military, e.g., Vergil?

Gratias,
Quintus Fabricius Varus

[David Smith]
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#5
I guess that would be the sources discussion, Robert would like to avoid.
I guess, this theme here only can be parallel to a discussion about the sources (cause Maurikios...6th century... etc. Wink ).
So, start a new theme to that Smile
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#6
I would think that the language used in military vs civilian even when recounted by historians is far too different to be used as a source.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#7
David,

No sources need be exempt, as long as the phrase quoted is in some way a military command. And yes, even poets can (although I so far know of none who did) write about their subject issuing commands.

I guess it's not that much different from artists portraying military in 'their' view, like they did on Trajan's Column for instance. But like I said, I know of no poet so far who atually used military phrases... Cry
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#8
Livy, not a poet but a civilian, used a lot of them. Mostly related to the signa and the verb ferre.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#9
You could make a case for the poet Tyrtaeus having commands. Confusedhock:

The commands in Tactica are quite extensive and although for phalanx tactics, I don't think there should be any issue using them in non-phalanx conexts considering they survived until at least the mid second century AD. Not to mention that phrases like 'shieldward turn' could only be said in limited number of ways. So even though not for 'Roman' tactics I think many would be usable (or at least easily adaptable with the weight that they are 'period' and they continued into the Byzantine period - well, at least the MSS do)

(I won't transliterate the Greek and I have omitted some commands)

Aelian Tactica 42.1:
To your arms
Stand by to take arms
Baggage-men fall out
Silence in the ranks
Attention
Take up arms
Shoulder arms
Take up intervals
Up spears
Dress files
Dress ranks
Keep your original intervals
Spearward face
Forward March
Halt
As you were
Shieldward face
Spearward about face
Shieldward about face
Spearward quarter-turn
Shieldward quarter-turn
Spearward half-turn
Shieldward half-turn

Cheers

Murray
Murray K Dahm

Moderator

\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62

\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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#10
Thanks Murray. When was this Aelian Tactica written?

Tobias, could you please make a list of the commands (all or just the relevant ones) used by Livy?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#11
Domaszewski did already, all infinit:
tollere - march, to begin a march
movere - march, beginn a march
ferre - march
effere / proferre - leave a place in march
constituere - stop, hold
inferre - to attack
convertere - turn around
referre - retreat
transferre - to go over
promovere - march forward
retro recipere - slowly go backwards (not retreat but going back)
ad laevam ferre - mach to the left
obicere - make a counterattack
armaque expedire / armare - get dressed for battle


Some of these used words were repeated by Tacitus, Suetonius, Cicero.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#12
Hi Robert - Aelian was writing in the second century AD - probably for Trajan's Parthian War. In fact, (shameless plug warning) there will be an article, 'the next Alexander', in a soon to be released new ancient warfare magazine which deals with Tactica and how they were put into operation. :oops:

Cheers

Murray
Murray K Dahm

Moderator

\'\'\'\'No matter how many you kill, you cannot kill your successor\'\'\'\' - Seneca to Nero - Dio 62

\'\'\'\'There is no way of correcting wrongdoing in those who think that the height of virtue consists in the execution of their will\'\'\'\' - Ammianus Marcellinus 27.7.9
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#13
Salvete,

Thanks for listing the examples from Livius and Aelianus. There are more in Aeneid 7 (and elsewhere), that can be addressed in turn. Many have pointed out in scholarly articles to Vergil's distinctly 'military' language; possibly revealing much about his relationship to Caesar.

It is rather puzzling that the Oxford Classical Dictionary should term Aelianus' Tactica as of 'slight value.' It is mostly from Asclepiodotus, the pupil of Posidonius. Some have linked his work to Polybius. One point that is worthy of note is the passage describing the advance of the Thessalian cavalry in rhomboid formation. In order to do such a thing, wouldn't this imply that there WERE times when both horses and men had to move 'in step'--in a mathematical sort of way? I do offer the modern analogy of airplanes, vehicles, and men having to master elements of timing to move in a fixed formation.

[I will be out of the loop for awhile, but thanks for a great discussion board]
Big Grin
Quintus Fabricius Varus

[David Smith]
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#14
:?:
Quote:* Latin grammar. I mean, of course that can be important, but better grammar does not make a command more authentic- that can only be safeguarded by a written source.

Do I detect a consensus that roman troops did not speak proper latin? For auxiliaries and late roman troops I would agree, perhaps even somewhat for the rank and file of the principate, but I would suspect that the officer class spoke latin quite well. They're giving the commands, why would they corrupt their grammar?

Maurice's latin drill was written late, and in Greek for that matter, so isn't reasonable to expect it to be corrupted from what was spoken earlier?
Titus Licinius Neuraleanus
aka Lee Holeva
Conscribe te militem in legionibus, vide mundum, inveni terras externas, cognosce miros peregrinos, eviscera eos.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiotricesima.org">http://www.legiotricesima.org
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#15
I've sent you a PM.

Lee, we're only discussing the commands here, NOT the source and NOT Latin grammar.
I would like to discuss Maurice, but not here.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply


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