Butted VS Rivited

[Dan Howard]

Source for Ciumesti sample: Rusu, M., "Das Keltisch Furstengrab von Ciumesti in Rumanien", Germania (Vol.50, 1969). 267-69.

According to the translation I was given, the author dates the find to the beginning of the 4th century. The wire used to make these links was between 0.8mm and 1.8mm thick and each link had an outside diameter between 8.5mm and 9.2mm (corrosion has probably distorted these figures). All except a small patch was made of alternating rows of riveted and welded(?) links with a circular cross-section. The small patch was butted and is likely to have been a repair.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I did hear about troop carrying wire to make field repairs, Dan!
If I get around to it, I am getting the Solid/riveted Hamata.....It ony makes sense! :wink:

[Taoye]

Hey folks, first post here... quick question!

I'm wondering if there is any evidence that hamata was made from anything other than iron? (such as bronze) If there is no evidence... is there any possibility it was? (or that another culture did?)

I've read somewhere that it was made of bronze sometimes as well, and I've also read that bronze was stronger than the type of iron the romans had available at the time. I have no idea how credible those statements are, but I've heard them.''

Any thoughts?

-Taoye

[Matt Lukes]

Yup, copper alloy was used (can't say something's bronze or brass without proper analysis, so the general term used is copper alloy). In fact, just this morning I was looking through Curle's book on finds from Newstead, and noticed that there are two sections of mail noted: one iron with an outer diameter of 6mm, and one that's super-fine bronze mail with two sizes of ring: 4mm and 3mm!

There's also a section from Vindonissa of 5-6mm diameter rings as well.

[Marcus Julius]

I've read somewhere that it was made of bronze sometimes as well,

I've also read something about using alternating rows of copper alloy and iron. I think something like punched copper alloy, and rivetted iron?

[Erik D. Schmid]

The copper alloy mail from Newstead was plumata. Mail that size and made from that material would have been quite weak all by itself.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There are some really small scales from Vindolanda too, of copper alloy. They are so shiny they look like gold!

[zugislander]

I recall that there was some "copper alloy" mail found in the tomb of the Scipios and someplace else Republican era as well.

Cordially,

Michael

[Taoye]

Yeah, wow, mail with a size of 3mm would have to be tiny! Probably 20ga thick and I don't see how that's going to protect very much.

Actually I'm looking at making a hamata from the republican period, and remembered hearing that bronze ("copper alloy") was a possibility, and might look a lot better than steel... (and maybe slightly more accurate, because I don't know how much modern steel looks like roman iron?).

Then again, it's going to be butted, not riveted, so there's only so accurate it can get. Alas! (rings will be 5mm inner, 1.22mm thick... already projecting 30 to 40 thousand rings in the shirt... sigh) Riveted would look amazing but I just can't see myself ever finishing a shirt with forty-thousand riveted rings... and for my purposes, it's not necessary to be -that- accurate.

Would be a really shiny shirt of mail when it's all polished up.

Thanks for the infos!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Actually, you would only need 10,000 riveted rings, the rest could be solid! :wink:

[Taoye]

Well, wait... 40,000 rings would mean 20,000 solid, 20,000 riveted.

Although I don't think the neighbors in my building would appreciate me banging on an anvil all day long... haha. Don't have any of the tools needed to rivet, either. I'm not at that super-obsessed level... yet.

Maybe I could hire some cheap slave labour. :-P P

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No....I think with a ratio of one-in-four.......but then maths was never my strong suit!! :wink: :lol:

[Taoye]

Nope! It's half and half. If your rows are alternating solid and riveted, that means out of 50 rows, 25 are riveted, which I'm pretty sure is half ;-) ) . That's an insanely labour-intensive shirt!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:oops: :oops: :oops: :lol:

And after that performance, I think I will get some sleep! :roll:

[Taoye]

I think that labour intensiveness is a definite example of why the segmentata was probably better for maintaining a large professional army during the height of the empire, because hamata takes more metal, worked by more people, for more hours. (regardless of the protective qualities of the two)

Good night! (or afternoon??)