When to use a knee to force someone back?

[Natuspardo]

In what situation could one use his knee to force an enemy backward? Ammianus speaks of this technique during the battle of Strasbourg:

At the very crisis of the battle, when our cavalry were bravely regrouping and the infantry were stoutly protecting their flanks with a wall of serried shields, ... the fight swayed this way and that. At one moment our men stood firm, at the next they gave way, and some of the most experienced fighters among the barbarians tried to force their foes backward by the pressure of their knees. AM 16.12

Could it refer to infantry or to cavalry? Does anyone know other references to this or has maybe experience as reenactor? Ive heard that one of the main goals of a rider during combat would be to protect his knees ...

Thanks for any help

[Marcus Mummius]

Perhaps they pushed their knees against their shields to push them forward with more force?

[Magnus]

Knee'ing would expose you a bit much you'd think...not to mention throw you off balance a bit since you're only standing on one leg.

[arklore70]

Jens,
from an Infantry/pedite perspective and knowing a tiny bit about combatatives from practical experience, I would have to agree with Jef's statement about them leaning in with their shields much like many of us do with a scutum or clipeus when practicing close order drill and combat.

The only other way would be to get close enough to have the knee opposite of the shield arm snap up for a blow to the groin/stomach in an attempt to bring your foe down. While this would work, I am not sure it is practical, since in order to get that close to your foe, you would be well within sword, dagger/knife, or spear range.

Anything else like Magnus says would leave you off balance and at risk of being knocked of your own feet; which usually did not result in a happy ending in close combat.

V/r
Mike

[floofthegoof]

Might it be possible to get down on your knees in order to lower your center of gravity and anchor yourself to the ground? It might work in the kind of shoving match where there is little room to swing weapons.

[Salvianus]

Interesting question

I have often wanted to try for a kick in open order armatura, but have never done so as, when it comes to it, it feels like I'm in too much danger either of slipping or of opening my guard by moving my shield out of the way.

Perhaps they pushed their knees against their shields to push them forward with more force?

This I do every display, as our campidoctor tests the formation of our cuneus or foulkon with his body weight and we have to press forward - at first as in a rugby scrum, then sometimes by simultaneous step with the left knee pushing the shields forward: what in Regia I would call steppan.

So that would make sense to me

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Mike,

I agree that leaning into your shield would probably be the way to interpret this. It would cause some imbalance if the opposition could/would step back, but then AM mentions that only the more experienced warriors could pull this off.

The only other way would be to get close enough to have the knee opposite of the shield arm snap up for a blow to the groin/stomach in an attempt to bring your foe down. While this would work, I am not sure it is practical, since in order to get that close to your foe, you would be well within sword, dagger/knife, or spear range.

You would never reach the groin or the stomach of the Roman opposite you, because the scutum covered him from neck to knee!

Hi Rich,

Might it be possible to get down on your knees in order to lower your center of gravity and anchor yourself to the ground? It might work in the kind of shoving match where there is little room to swing weapons.

That would be very counterproductive, because:
1) you can't push when you're on your knees,
2) your shoulders are suddenly a lot lower and hence more vulnerable, and
3) your back will become very exposed to your opponent's spatha.

[Tarbicus]

Might it be possible to get down on your knees in order to lower your center of gravity and anchor yourself to the ground? It might work in the kind of shoving match where there is little room to swing weapons.

That would be very counterproductive, because:
1) you can't push when you're on your knees,

I'm not sure Ammianus would agree:
'Often, indeed, the Roman soldier was beaten down by the weight of his enemy's arms, but he constantly rose again; and then, on the other hand, the barbarian, finding his knees fail under him with fatigue, would rest his left knee on the ground, and even in that position attack his enemy, an act of extreme obstinacy.'
Book 16; XII, 48.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ammia ... book16.htm

Just wondering about the original quote, could the opposing lines have been using spears pushed into opposing shields to push each other back, in which case the knees tactic might make sense? It's not until after that sentence that the men are mentioned going shield to shield.

[Robert Vermaat]

1) you can't push when you're on your knees,

I'm not sure Ammianus would agree:
'Often, indeed, the Roman soldier was beaten down by the weight of his enemy's arms, but he constantly rose again; and then, on the other hand, the barbarian, finding his knees fail under him with fatigue, would rest his left knee on the ground, and even in that position attack his enemy, an act of extreme obstinacy.'
Book 16; XII, 48.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ammia ... book16.htm

Jim, I'm not sure that this is the same as the original quote. I read here that resting one (just one, not both as suggested above) was seen as blocking, not in order to push the enemy back.

Just wondering about the original quote, could the opposing lines have been using spears pushed into opposing shields to push each other back, in which case the knees tactic might make sense? It's not until after that sentence that the men are mentioned going shield to shield.

Spears are not that good for pushing, since you can easily remove their pressure (dished shield).

I get the feeling that Ammianus did not actually see this himself, but is describing what others tell him....

[Tarbicus]

Jim, I'm not sure that this is the same as the original quote. I read here that resting one (just one, not both as suggested above) was seen as blocking, not in order to push the enemy back.

Oh it's definitely not the same quote, which is a little bit before the one I quoted. But it's the same battle.
"Some of the most powerful warriors among the barbarians pressed upon their antagonists with their knees, trying to throw them down; and in the general excitement men fought hand to hand, shield pressing upon shield; while the heaven resounded with the loud cries of the conquerors and of the dying"
XII, 37

[Robert Vermaat]

Jim, I'm not sure that this is the same as the original quote. I read here that resting one (just one, not both as suggested above) was seen as blocking, not in order to push the enemy back.

Oh it's definitely not the same quote, which is a little bit before the one I quoted. But it's the same battle.

Yes I know that, I just meant to say that I think AM means something different in both quotes - in one he says (I think) that the enemy is pushed back by force of the knees, in the other he says (I think) the knee was rested and thus the enemy was blocked.

I think in quote 1 the German did the pushing, in quote 2 he blocked the pushing of the Romans.

I think.

[Tarbicus]

I think in quote 1 the German did the pushing, in quote 2 he blocked the pushing of the Romans.

I think.

But the effect's the same, surely? With a man against you in close physical combat, the knees can be used to exert a force against him?

'...would rest his left knee on the ground, and even in that position attack his enemy, an act of extreme obstinacy....'
Now that's interesting, because his left knee is on the ground, therefore not directly applying pressure on his shield against the enemy. However, flexing the thigh and digging the knee in gives an excellent means of bracing the body against a short quick dash/push of the Roman in front. If you were outweighed and extremely tired you would be incredibly stable, compared to a man pushing into you.

Apply the same to the front lines of the Germans, but this time in an aggressive manner. They would have the men behind them to overreach them and also contend with the Roman directly in front. Basically, two Germans against one Roman, attacking him both high and low. Add to that the pressure from the kneeling German, and it sounds like it could be quite an effective combat tactic. Not very mobile for sure, but effective.

In other parts of the source I think it's also said how the barbarians would clash their shields against their knees. Most modern re-enactors wouldn't do that I imagine, being rather painful, but the Germans didn't seem to mind.

[Robert Vermaat]

OK, that sounds reasonable.

I hesitate about the clashing of shield against knees though, that's not only painful, it's debilitating! Ever done that, by mistake? I have! Ouch!
Can AM be referring to clashing the shield against the spearshaft there?

[Tarbicus]

I hesitate about the clashing of shield against knees though, that's not only painful, it's debilitating! Ever done that, by mistake? I have! Ouch!

Ever walked barefoot over hot coals? There are people who do, and they sure ain't European re-enactors :wink:

Can AM be referring to clashing the shield against the spearshaft there?

He definitely says knees, and differentiates between striking the shield on the knees and striking the spear on the shield, which is mentioned elsewhere.

[Mitra]

It isn't a good idea take to the letter Ammianus: he is famous for the arcaisms in his descriptions, especially the a lot of military terminology is taken from all the previous literature, greek and latin. All the Strasbourg battle narration, is full of literary images and terms taken from previous authors (we can date back to Tirteus), they aren't precises technical descriptions. Obnixi genibus means "make force with the knees", so AM wants create the idea of push, the men who press with the force of legs, a old "topical image" from the greek war authors used also by Roman authors in different forms example Livy in Zama description), the image of knee pointed against the shield is made with "obnixo genu scuto" used by Nepos in Chabria life (but for a defensive tactic).