Byzantine re-enactment

[Hoplitesmores]

You are so right.You cant enjoy history here because of the war issue.Anything related to ancient greece or greek history in general is politicized in Greece because of the situation with most states we are in contact with. :roll:

[spyros]

Yes and no. it depends on the time period. A movie about Heraclitus would cause uproar but something about Frankish Greece would be far more mainstream. Frankish bashing is in vogue, something along the lines of Kingdom of heaven for example.

By the way have you tried Mount & Blade? A very interesting game www.taleworlds.com

There is a Byzantine and Ottoman mod for the game.

Also see this illustration below from the game’s forum, of early and late Varangian. Although the late may represent any heavy infantryman of the Komnenian or early Paleologian period.

[hoplite14gr]

After 11th century the Varangian shields were probably "almond shaped" or kite shields or even square slavonic. The left figure could represent a guards man from 1100 to 1204 (with kite shield of course). Later guardsmen would have even more westernised equipment.

Kind regards

[spyros]

Always tit bits, Stefane, when are you going to start translating your articles into English? For those of you that don't know it Stefanos has written two excellent articles on the Varangians and Latinikon.
(:wink: shameless advertisement of a fellow Greek)

[spyros]

Just to keep this thread alive, and spice things a bit here’s a post from another forum about Byzantines ranks.

Byzantine Army Ranks (6th-15th Century AD)



-Commander in Chief of the Byzantine armed forces was offcourse the Emperor->Vassileus or Autocrator. When the Emperor was CiC of the armed forces on campaign, he was called Protostrator/Head of the Army.
-Second in command in the Army structure was the Strategos/General of the Thema Anatolikon* who was something like the Chief of Staff.
-Supreme Commander of the armed forces (Army & Navy) on campaign was the Megas Domesticos/Grand Domesticus (if the Emperor was absent). If the Emperor was in charge of the campaign then Grand Domesticus was his lieutenant.
-Supreme Commander of the land forces on campaign was the Domesticos/Domesticus (if the Emperor was absent). If the Emperor was in charge of the campaign then Domesticus was his Chief staff officer.
-Strategos/General was the military commander of the Thema (equivalent to the modern lieutenant general). Strategos was the title of the Dukas/Duke, the civil administrator of the Thema, in war times. He was in charge of a force of 9,000 men. Generals carried a silver baton called Matzuka (lit. truncheon, matsuki in modern Greek), or Dikanikion.
-Ypostrategos was the Strategos' XO.
-Stratelates (often Merarches or Turmarches, division commander) was the military commander of the Turma (infantry) or Moira (Cavalry). He was equivalent to the modern rank of major general.
-Chief of Infantry was the Magistros tou Pezikou, from the Roman Magister Peditum, master of foot.
-Chief of Cavalry was the Magistros tou Ippikou, from the Roman Magister Equitum, master of horse.
-Megas Hetaeriarches/Grand Commander of the Companion troops , was the commander of the mercenary forces.
-The Drungarios (the rank sometimes appears as Drungares or Moirarches or Phalangarches-commander of a Phalanx-also) was the commander of 3,000 men.
-Viglator was the CO of the garrison troops in the capital.
-Akolouthos (lit. attendant) was the CO of the Varangian Guard (the Imperial Bodyguards). The Akolouthos & his Varangian Troops had the privilige to wear red uniforms.
-Tagmatarches (early name: Tribunos, from the roman Tribunus. 8th-10th century AD: Tagmatarches. 12th-13th century: Taxiarches. 14th century: Komes ton Tagmaton/Count of the Battalions. Palaeologean period: Tagmatarches), was the CO of the Tagma, the basic Byzantine unit to conduct war (battalion).
-Mensor or Mensurator was the surveyor in charge of the troop encampment.
-Anticensor was the officer in charge of the enginners.
-Sacellarios was the army paymaster (from the latin sacellium: The Imperial Mint).
-Cleisouriarches was the officer in charge of the troops guarding the mountain passes (from the Greek Cleisoura, mountain pass).
-Komes tes Kohortes/Count of Cohort was any Staff Officer.
-Komes/Count was the CO of a unit equivalent to 300 men (Kometeia/County). Note that the County was a military unit & not a district or province.
-Kentarchos/Centurion was the CO of 100 men (from the Roman Centurio). This rank appears also as Ekatontarchos, the Greek translation of Centurio.
-Dekarchos was the commander of 10 men.
-Pentarchos was the commander of 5 men.
-Ouragos was the rear-rank soldier.
-Stratiotes/soldier was the common soldier.
-Spatharios (lit. sword bearer) was the heavy armed soldier of an elite tagma or kometeia.
-Hetaeros/Companion was the mercenary soldier.
-Tetimemenos Kyres was the noble Knight (lit. noble lord).
Within the various rank groups (field, superior, general officers), it was common to address rank officers as Archon, Archontes in plural (dominator or ruler, ruler is perhaps more accurate). To distinguish a civil from a military archon, a military officer was addressed Archon apo Spathiou (Ruler of the Sword). The people used to call the military archontes, "Kephalades" (bullheaded, a depreciative remark).
Historian Genessius, in 873 AD gives us an interesting episode, when describing the last moments before the soldiers of the Armeniakon (Armenian) & Chersianon or Chersonos (Cherson in the Crimea) Thema, attack the Persians:
"This is about a quarrel among the archontes [meaning the generals], which of the two armies is more gallant; and then the soldiers of the Armeniakon, the aristocrats of our army, said: -Gallantry is not measured in speechies; let us both rush headlong to the enemy and then we'll see who is the most valiant. The two generals asked the gathered troops: -Men, are you ready to compete with each other, and attack the enemy, so Help us God? And they answered: -Yes, in the name of our Emperor. And with the thrilling cry -Stavros Nenikeken [The Cross is the winner], they assaulted the enemy lines".
*The Thema, Themata in plural. Established either by Heraclius or his successor Constas II on the model of the Italian and African exarchates, the themes were administrative divisions of the empire in which a general exercised both civilian and military jurisdiction. The name is peculiar; Treadgold's closest guess is that thema was being used to denote "emplacements."
In the 10th century, 28 themata are listed (in order of grandness):
-Thema Anatolikon (of the Orient), including parts of Phrygia, Lycaonia, Isauria, Pamphylia and Pisidia;
-Thema Armeniakon (of Armenia), including parts of Armenia, Chaldia, and Cappadocia;
-Thema Thrakesion (of the Thracians), established by Leo III in Phrygia, Lydia and Ionia and named after the Thracian troops rotated there;
-Thema Opsikion, including Mysia and part of Bithynia and Phrygia;
-Thema Optimaton, named after the Tagma ton Optimaton ("Battalion of the Best") stationed there, formed out of Opsiakian Bithynia;
-Thema Bucellarion, named after the Tagma ton Bucellarion ("Battalion of the Companions") stationed there, formed out of Opsiakian Galatia;
-Thema of Paphlagonia;
-Thema of Chaldia, the country about Trebizond and formerly called Pontus after the Black Sea;
-Thema of Messopotamia, the trifling possessions of the empire on the Messopotamian frontier;
-Thema of Colonea, the country between Pontus and Armenia Minor, through which the Lycus flows, near Neocaesarea;
-Thema of Sevasteia, consisting of the rest of Armenia;
-Thema Lycandon, a theme formed by Leon VI the Wise on the borders of Armenia;
-Thema of Cibyrraeoton, the naval theme established by Leo III in Caria, Lycia, Rhodes, and the coast of Cilicia that replaced the earlier Thema Caravisianon;
-Thema Cypriakon, the naval theme for Cyprus;
-Thema Aigaeou Pelagous, the naval theme for the Aegean Sea;
-Thema Thrakes (of Thrace), the area around but not including Constantinople;
-Thema Makedonikon (of Macedonia), the area around but not including Thessaloniki;
-Thema Strymonos (of the Strymon river);
-Thema Thessalonikes (of Thessaloniki), the second city of the Empire;
-Thema Helladikon (of Hellas), created between 687 and 695, consisted of Greece between Makedonia and the Isthmus, the former regions of Attica, Boeotia, Acarnania, and Aetolia;
-Thema Peloponnesou (of Peloponnese);
-Thema Cephallenias, including the Ionian islands (Corfu, Zakynthos, Cephallenia, Zakynthos, Lephkas)
-Thema Nikopolitikon (of Nicopolis, a city in Epirus);
-Thema Dyrrachion, on the shore of modern Albania (modern day city of Durres);
-Thema Sicelias, a naval theme in Sicily;
-Thema Longibardias (of Lombardy, also called Calabrias, of Calabria) in Italy; and
-Thema Chersonos in the Crimea


Byzantine Navy Ranks
-Commander in Chief of the Byzantine Imperial Fleet was offcourse the Emperor/Vassileus or Autocrator.
-Chief of the Royal Fleet (Vassilikon Ploimon) was the Megas Drungarios tou Ploimou/Grand Drungarius of the Fleet, rank equivalent to the modern Fleet Admiral.
-Topoteretes (Supporter, perhaps a more accurate translation would be Suffragan). Rank similar to the modern Vice-Admiral.
-Drungarios. Officer with specific duties (Drungarios tou Kolpou/Drungarius of the Gulf, for example, who had the duty to guard the entrance to the Bosporus).
-Turmarches tou Ploimou/Turmarch of the Fleet. This officer administered the Turma, a division of a Thematic Fleet.
-Komes/Count. The captain of detachment (one naval detachment equalled 3 or 5 ships) of a Thematic Fleet. In the Imperial Fleet, this officer held the title Protospatharios/First of the Sword or, Spatharokandidatos/Candidate of the Sword.
-Sacellarios was the director of the fleet's financial resources (from the latin Sacellium)
-Chartoularios was the caretaker of the fleet and head of the secretariat of the fleet (Senior Secretary).
-Protomandator was the head of the corps of messengers (Senior Messenger).
-Mandator was the officer entrusted with the delivery of orders and information (Messenger).
-Protocaravos was the leader of the oar-bearers (Chief Oarsman)
-Kentarchos or Ekatontarchos was the captain of a ship, who directed it from the prow, where his quarters ([the Cravatos) were located.
-The fleet's finances were regulated by the Secreton tou Ploimou/ Secretariat of the Fleet or by the Secreton tes Thalasses/Secretariat of the Sea which mostly looked after the affairs of the merchant fleet

Byzantine Vessels
The most important Byzantine naval ship was the Dromon/ΔΡΟΜΩΝ, which is the ancient Greek word for runner, a light and swift boat which came in many different forms and sizes. It had two or three masts, was two-decked, and could be up to 55 metres/180 feet long and 6 metres/20 feet wide. The ship was manned according to its type and dimensions. Some could carry 100, 160, 200 or even 300 men of whom some were marines (Pezonaphtes) who in battle were supported by a number of the rowers


Dromons were each equipped with a Xylocastron (Greek for "wooden castle"), a tower around the main mast from which the marines hurled their spears and used their bows, or threw stones and pieces of metal at the enemy. At the prow and stern were fixed mechanical devices known as Toxovolistra/es (arbalest) which were used to fire small arrows named Myia/es, lit. "flies". These ships are described in the sources as tube-bearing dromons because of the pipe-like weapons they bore (Siphon) to douse enemy ships with Greek fire.
The Marines also used smaller dispensers of liquid fire that could be operated by a single person, the Cheirosiphon/es, hand-held siphons.
By the 10th century AD, a new type of Dromon appears, the Chelandios Dromon (chelandios from the Greek Chelion, the Eel).
Chelandia in certain instances were used as horse carriers, each capable of holding twelve horses.
The Pamphyloi were larger ships than the dromons. As a ship, was the flagship of the Imperial fleet. It was very fast, well equipped and had a select crew and experienced marines.
Scouting ships were single-deck minor dromons. Galleas/ses (Galleys), likewise single-deck ships, took messages and executed various missions. The Sachtourae were similar ships to these. Auxillary boats included the Sandalion, with five pairs of oars and a single mast. The main transport ships were the so-called Camatera Caravia (Strong Vessels), used for siege machinery. These were well equipped and usually sailed next to the dromons. These were the warships of the Byzantines, of which an important number took part in various battles.
The standard formation used by the warships in battle was the Semicircle (formation of Aspelagolemen ). The flagship would sail in the centre while the strongest dromons were situated at the extremities.
Other types of attack involved the ships arranged lengthways with their prows pointed at the enemy, and the division of a naval unit into three parts with one attacking in the centre and the other to the side. Rushes were often used to defeat the enemy. Furthermore, the marines were well trained since they often took part in mock battles.
NOTE: Early Byzantine Empire flags had nothing to do with the two-headed byzantine eagle. Early Standards (as they are displayed in the Cretan Naval Museum in Chania), depicted either the Cross with four B-shaped firesteels Each letter B stands for Vassileus Vassileon Vassilevon Vassilevonton (King of Kings ruling over Kings) or the Greek abbreviation (Christogramma in Greek) for Christ (Christos/XPICTOC in medieval Greek) on red, yellow or blue field




Emperor Isaacius Comnenus (11th century AD), the first ruling member of the Comnenus dynasty, was the first Emperor who adopted the two headed eagle as the symbol of the Empire

Comneni, descended from Paphlagonia. Paphlagons believed that the double-headed eagle known as the Haghah was the symbol of their military merit & the protector of their province. Thus, Isaacius impropriated Haghah as the Byzantine symbol, demonstrating the military virtues of his empire in difficult times (the Empire was threatened by the Seljucs & the Patzinaks). The two heads stand for both the Byzantine rule over both East and West & the Byzantine Orthodox Church-State relations (Church & State were governed by the principle of Symphonia or Synallelia, i.e. a "symphony" between the civil and the ecclesiastical functions of Christian society).

The last Byzantine Standard (15th Century AD)[/b]

The two-headed Byzantine Eagle, is also the CoA of two modern States, Serbia & Russia & was also the CoA of Hapsburg Austria. That's because the nations that officially adopted Orthodox Christianity-the religion of the Eastern Roman Empire (ΡΩΜΑΝΙΑ/Romania)-as their state religion, had the right to bear the byzantine eagle on their arms if they wanted to, but...in silver (e.x. Serbia). The bearing of the byzantine eagle in gold was only a privilige that belonged to the sovereign of Constantinople. Austria on the other hand, earned the right to bear the byzantine eagle, after the marriage of the first German Emperor Otto I in 972, with the niece of Byzantine Emperor Ioannis Tzimiskes, Theophano (and ofcourse the Ausrian Empire claimed to be the continuation of the Holy Roman Empire of the Germans). They adopted the byzantine eagle, in black though, as the "shadow of the Imperial Eagle". Russia also had the eagle in silver but they changed it in gold (probably in the 15th century after the marriage of Ivan III, Grand Duke of Moscow with Sophia Palaeologina, the daughter of the last Byzantine Emperor & after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans), to justify their claim as the "third Rome":
"Two Romes have fallen (i.e. the old Rome & the new Rome-Constantinople). The third stands. And there will not be a fourth. No one will replace your Christian Tsardom!"-Monk Filofey, 1510

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=112459

[hoplite14gr]

This I I think must go to the Byzantine discussion thread not reanctment.
Kind regards

[Arahne]

Does anyone know if there is a work that collected, and analyzed vast number of iconographic representations of byzantine millitary equpment - frescoes?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I split this from the main thread, to continue views about Byzantine history here.

Was wondering why I couldn't quite follow it all! :lol:

[Hoplitesmores]

We could "modify" these guys here!
[url:2y89y6jn]http://good-times.webshots.com/album/558729606xJmebA?track_pagetag=/page/photo/goodtimes/goodtimes&track_action=/ViewActions/FullAlbum[/url]

[hoplite14gr]

Well they could qualify for the "LATINIKON" regiment.
Kind regards

[Theodosius the Great]

Hoplite14gr,

Well Theo,
Ancient Rome has some "sentimental distance" to Greeks.
Byzantium does not.

I'm baffled by that phenomenon. I mean, people in the US reenact the Revolutionary and Civil War periods. Renaissance reenactment is also popular. I myself started to branch out into doing a Spanish conquistador impression. There's not much distance between us and these eras I just mentioned but maybe things are different in Europe, they sure are Greece.

1000$ is roughly 800 Euro which is a married shop assistant's or courier's monthly salary in Greece so it is kind of "salty".
Plus most of the items have to be imported and that adds to the expence.

Well, with anything else, there's much to choose from - infantryman, foreign mercenary, cavalry, archer, etc.. All of these vary in cost, of course. And I understand it would take time to save up money but that's true of doing just about any other time period unless you're doing really modern impressions.

Most of the "native" Byzantine troops were militia with the Varangians "Latinikon" and Imperial household cavalry composed from foreigners in a substantial part

You could also choose to be an Isaurian. True, they were, at best, half-civilised but were at least native to Anatolia and thus subjects of the empire.

- plus as I said cavalry reconstructions are more demanding.

Yes, you did. Sorry, I must've read your post too quickly (plus, I'm not yet used to seeing modern Greek spellings for unit types). Cavalry reeanctors of all periods are the elite among the rest of us due to the prohibitive costs of that genre.


~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

Byzantium is with us everyday since we are born so there is no need to reenact it.The church the priests the temples the holidays........You see it when you go out of your house .Its too familiar at least some aspects of it whilst most are unkown so you dont get the need to reenact something thats already there like that.

Partially speaking, I feel the same way about the Church being a direct link to Rome since I'm a Roman Catholic. But that in no way turns me off to Roman reenactment of any period. For centuries the Church in western Europe, in a way, has promoted reenactment through the use of Passion Plays. Yet most people on RAT are drawn to Roman reenactment.

If I feel familiarity toward something I would tend to identify with it all the more rather than feel repelled by it. So, I don't understand the psychology of feeling disconnected with something so familiar. Maybe it's the nasty modern tendency to compartmentalize aspects our lives.

About a hero like image as one in Ancient Greece its non existant.

Belisarius is probably the most well known hero and he was a Greek or a Thracian (I know part of ancient Thrace is now a Greek province). His popularity in the West reached its apogee during the 19th century when his story was partially fictionalized and many paintings of him were commissioned at that time. So, he may not be well known today but that's only been true for a few decades with the collapse of learning in modern state-run schools.

Here are some famous paintings :

[url:3dr6inq6]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Belisarius_by_Francois-Andre_Vincent.jpg[/url]

[url:3dr6inq6]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/David_-_Belisarius.jpg/655px-David_-_Belisarius.jpg[/url]

[url:3dr6inq6]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Belisarius_by_Peyron.jpg/800px-Belisarius_by_Peyron.jpg[/url]

BTW, most people know about 'famous' Greeks like Leonidas because they saw that silly '300' movie :roll: So, I don't buy the rationale of ignorance breeding antipathy towards Byzantine reenactment. Most people are ignorant of things that happened 50 years ago. Of course they know nothing about Byzantium !

~Theo

[Hoplitesmores]

Familiarity breeds contempt.Thats the case in Greece.The hero like image i mean one present in modern Greece like every kid has about theseus,perseus,hercules or miltiades,leonidas,alexander,pyrrhus......Thracians were hellenized for a long time before belissarius time and a great part of thrace had greek and greek thracian inhabitants.Even when they read about byzantine heroes at school in history and poetry classes they never think them "cool".Seems Byzantines are too cool for school!

[Martin Wallgren]

After 11th century the Varangian shields were probably "almond shaped" or kite shields or even square slavonic. The left figure could represent a guards man from 1100 to 1204 (with kite shield of course). Later guardsmen would have even more westernised equipment.

Kind regards

I thought they would be equipped very much like their kindsmen in Roslagen, and Östergötland?!?

[Theodosius the Great]

Familiarity breeds contempt.Thats the case in Greece.

I remember that axiom but only used in the context of war or among traditional enemies. :wink:

The hero like image i mean one present in modern Greece like every kid has about theseus,perseus,hercules or miltiades,leonidas,alexander,pyrrhus

I see. Someone who died gloriously whereas Belisarius died in disgrace. There's something to be said for tragic heroes like him. (Hannibal is another example of the tragic hero.) Be that as it may, with Belisarius I thought his Greek background would at least earn him some mention in Greek history classes.

Thracians were hellenized for a long time before belissarius time and a great part of thrace had greek and greek thracian inhabitants.

Oh, I believe it. With that kind of proximity how could they not be ?

Even when they read about byzantine heroes at school in history and poetry classes they never think them "cool".Seems Byzantines are too cool for school!

Maybe it's just as well. Schools often teach wrong when they teach at all. Better to be unremembered than having one's memory defiled, IMO.

~Theo