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Byzantine re-enactment
#16
Quote: implanted the modern fictionalized account of Byzantium into the minds of modern Greeks

I guess 400 years of slavery was having an adverse effect in greek schooling.Amazing discovery the fact what several centuries of theft rape and murder can do to a peoples education and culture.


Pardon my rant

:x but what is up?
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#17
When it benefited the great powers in the greek revolution they jumped in to "save" the day.And that after several years.

About the reenactment bit the only interest so far seems the Varangians from guys i ve talked to in Greece.
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#18
Yes who can afford to reenact a Klibanioforos? :lol:

Kind regards
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#19
Well, not me. But whouldn't you just loved it? Big Grin

By the way Themistokli, great post and thanks for the info. I believe that re-enactement is more than recostructing items and so on. I find it great to discover how people also thought back than.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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#20
Hello Hoplitesmores,

I don't disagree with anything you've said (well maybe except for one or two minor things).

Quote:They called themselves Greeks and never stopped.It wans't invented or imposed by greeks or English/French.

The English and French philhellenes certainly encouraged its use to the exclusion of the name Rhomaioi. That was my only point.

Weren't the two terms (Rhomioi and Graekoi) used simultaneously at the time of the outbreak of the War for Independence ?

You yourself quoted someone saying "In brief, the so-called "Byzantines" identified themselves as Graekoi, Hellenes, and Rhomioi ". None of these terms were mutually exclusive, am I right ? In other words, you weren't just one of these. You were Greek and Roman. (And I suppose one could be a Latin and a Roman, but he couldn't be a Latin and a Greek.)


Quote:In "byzantium"
The majority of the common people spoke greek
The language of the Church was greek
the language of administration was greek
the language of the scholars was also greek


Yes, all true enough. But the administration itself was Roman, and the army owed little or nothing of its organization to any Greek model. There's more to culture than language, IMO.

Quote:and finally they were called Greeks in the west and by the Pope and by most foreign states.

Charlemange, if I'm not mistaken, started or at least popularized the use of the name 'Greek' in the medieval West so that he could claim to be Emperor of the Romans. Of course, the use of the word 'Greek' would have later evolved to include negative connotations due to religious schisms.

All that concerns me is what the Eastern Romans called themselves and not how they were perceived by others.

Quote:And the english didnt kick the ottomans out.We did.

Yes, the dirty work was done by the Greek Christians with materiel support from the English and Russians. Without foreign aid the revolt would have failed.

Quote:How many years did the english or French fought with us and in what numbers?

To both questions : very few. Like you said. Hence my earlier statement about the English being unconcerned for your struggle until you appealed to their love for ancient Greece.

Quote:Last time i checked in Mesollogi the Ottomans had french officers helping them and we had a handfull of phillellenes.

I think you're confusing two separate statements that I made about the French and the English. They were both culpable in perpetuating Edward Gibbon's view of Byzantium which is a vile distortion of history. I didn't mean to imply France ever helped in your country's efforts to achieve independence.

Quote:and finally they were called Greeks in the west and by the Pope and by most foreign states

True. But then why did the Turks, the ultimate conquerors of this 'Greek Kingdom', call it the empire of "Rum" ?

Quote:I guess 400 years of slavery was having an adverse effect in greek schooling.Amazing discovery the fact what several centuries of theft rape and murder can do to a peoples education and culture.

Yes, I agree, the Turks are chiefly to blame. Of course, the 'great powers' of the time of Greek independence did little to recitfy the situation. In fact, they only further obscured the historical truth of 'Byzantium' thanks to movements like the so-called Enlightenment and Romanticism and to jerks like Gibbon.

~Theo
Jaime
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#21
Hello HOPLITE14GR,

Quote:Theo, Byzantine History is tought at schools because it is part of our heritage.


I'm glad to heat that. Unfortunately, from what I hear the public isn't very receptive to embracing Byzantium as part of its heritage. They seem to have adopted an anachronistic, Anglicized view of it which seems bizarre to me. So, either the schools aren't teaching history properly or the public is stubbornly clinging to old foreign notions of their own history or both. Sad

Quote:The succesfull military emperors defending the empire are stressed of course and Justninian fot building Hagia Sofia (Altouhg he was a b****t in my opinion.)

Agreed, but I think his wife was worse. A pox on them both, I say :lol:

Quote:Detailed research in Byzantium shows many negative things especially in the early and late periods

And whereas earlier Roman history is pristine, free of negativity ? :roll: I'm sorry, but there's no justification for the bad press the Eastern Romans have recieved for centuries. There's clearly a double standard, IMO, that persists to this day and, frankly, I believe it stems from bigotry (both ancient and modern).

Quote:Byzantine renactment also if you do not do light troops is more expensive than ancient.

That's surprising to hear since medieval reenactment is more popular than ancient Greek. I'm working on an VI century officer kit right now and I estimate it will cost me well under $1,000 (USD). Maybe I'm missing something :wink:

According to Hoplitesmores :
Quote:About the reenactment bit the only interest so far seems the Varangians from guys i ve talked to in Greece.

Wow, Greeks must really loathe their medieval past to prefer to reenact as foreign troops instead of native soldiers. Confusedhock:

~Theo
Jaime
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#22
Byzantine troops and the era isnt as "cool" to modern greeks since it reminds them of the church that is something they see everyday since they are born.Other than the fact that ancient greece is what attracts most modern greeks.The byzantine image is more on scholars and religious figures here.
And yes varangians and knights oh rhodes even i like more to reenact than a byzantine local.Anyways most of the troops were foreign mercenaries. This would only change if the image changed with but that will be hard. By going to the church and looking at st.George armed doesnt open up ones appetite for reenacting medieval greece.Its already there as the church and the priests.
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#23
Byzantium is with us everyday since we are born so there is no need to reenact it.The church the priests the temples the holidays........You see it when you go out of your house .Its too familiar at least some aspects of it whilst most are unkown so you dont get the need to reenact something thats already there like that.
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#24
Well Theo,
Ancient Rome has some "sentimental distance" to Greeks.
Byzantium does not. 1000$ is roughly 800 Euro which is a married shop assistant's or courier's monthly salary in Greece so it is kind of "salty".
Plus most of the items have to be imported and that adds to the expence.

Visually a Byzantine Militiaman is less impressive than an ancient psilos to many people. (OK tastes vary but stats favor antiquity.)

Most of the "native" Byzantine troops were militia with the Varangians "Latinikon" and Imperial household cavalry composed from foreigners in a substantial part - plus as I said cavalry reconstructions are more demanding.

Kind regards
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#25
Quote:Byzantine troops and the era isnt as "cool" to modern greeks since it reminds them of the church that is something they see everyday since they are born.Other than the fact that ancient greece is what attracts most modern greeks.The byzantine image is more on scholars and religious figures here.
And yes varangians and knights oh rhodes even i like more to reenact than a byzantine local.Anyways most of the troops were foreign mercenaries. This would only change if the image changed with but that will be hard. By going to the church and looking at st.George armed doesnt open up ones appetite for reenacting medieval greece.Its already there as the church and the priests.

I agree with Hoplitesmores, in most points. Byzantium is simply not cool. It's the same with 2nd century and late roman re-enactment. Of course if someone made the effort to reconstruct something like these cataphracts, hmm....
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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#26
Byzantines and Byzantium is seen as a scholarly and religious pursuit era in which mercenaries mostly and economics along with scientific advances held the empire together.

About a hero like image as one in Ancient Greece its non existant.We feel it too close to be reenacted.An example is the Tsoliades like the armatoloi and the such.1821 revolution warriors.Its reenacting but noone sees it under that context.I ll have to change that there is lots of reenacting in Greece after all!
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#27
No hero figure? How about Konstantinos Paleologos, or even better Digenis and the whole Akrites mythos? Or even Basilios?
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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#28
Not enough promoted or known as an image, there were plenty of heroes but there is no image in the eye of the general public.
Themistoklis papadopoulos
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#29
Fair enough.
Spyros Kaltikopoulos


Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do
but showing pity also, and compassion
Kavafis the Alexandrian
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#30
I think that the trouble is, that if one would these days make a movie or a series about a Byzantine hero, it would all to easy be seen as either anti-Turkish or otherwise nationalistic. Look what '300' did!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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