How did the Roman’s actually wear their pugios? 2 belts?

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

When I look at examples of Roman Soldier sculptures, both legionary and auxiliaries, almost all appear to be wearing two belts.

The top belt holds the gladius, which is worn on the right hip, the second belt, underneath the first, hangs behind and holds the pugio.

Sometimes a sword is hanging from a shoulder strap, other times a pugio is tied in the front but In most cases, the pugio appears to be attached directly to the frogs and is on a second belt that hangs below and underneath the first; it does not appear to be hanging from a strap attached to one belt (as in modern recreation).

1. Is it possible that the modern recreation method of hanging the pugio from a strap attached to one belt was a misinterpretation?

2. Did the second belt, which was worn underneath the first, get misinterpreted as a strap?

3. Should we ideally be wearing two belts and hanging the pugio directly to the frogs?

Please look at these examples, both Sculptures and sketches first, then please post your opinions. Yes this is art but, it's honestly all I have to go by at this time.

Thanks!

[url:2bh7gdh7]http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/mcbishop/BandC2/?action=view&current=fig150.png[/url]

[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/thumbs/imagebase_FirstnameAB_lg_AnnaiusDaverzusd1_jpg_large.jpg[/url]

[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/thumbs/imagebase_FirstnameNP_lg_PFlavoleiusCordusd1_jpg_large.jpg[/url]

[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/Unknowns/lg_unkMilesMainzIId1.jpg[/url]



These links were originally posted by TARBICvS/Jim Bowers

Daverzus
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,15/Itemid,94/[/url]

Firmus
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,142/Itemid,94/[/url]

Hyperanor (difficult to see)
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,36/Itemid,94/[/url]

Facilis
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,50/Itemid,94/[/url]

Lorarius (at front, straps around)
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,83/Itemid,94/[/url]

Pintaius
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,43/Itemid,94/[/url]

Cordus (this one definitely is IMHO)
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,7/Itemid,94/[/url]

Secundus (his looks distant from the frog)
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,7/Itemid,94/[/url]

Pantera
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,37/Itemid,94/[/url]

Unknown engineer Cologne
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,33/Itemid,94/[/url]

Unknown miles Cologne
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,207/Itemid,94/[/url]

Unknown miles Mainz
[url:2bh7gdh7]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/task,view/cid,54/Itemid,94/[/url]

[Tarbicus]

Yup, it's intriguing. But there are pitfalls to the possibility:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 346#133346

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

But there are pitfalls to the possibility:

In my opinion, the pugio rings did not have to fit over the frogs.

It makes more since that the frog’s disks are larger than the rings in order to keep the pugio scabbard attached. The pugio ring would be opened, slipped over the frog behind the large disk (which would keep it from falling off) and the ring would then be tightened behind.

In all honesty, that is what appears to be in the sketches and sculptures in the links above.

Also, admittedly, I’m sure in the history of the Roman Empire, someone tied his pugio to his sword belt with a leather lace but… I really don’t think that was the norm and I really think two belts should be worn…. The [i]“hanging a pugio from a strap and wearing one beltâ€

[Tarbicus]

Anthony, have you read Mike Bishop's article on the early Imperial apron? It's here as a PDF:
http://www.jrmes.org.uk/vol03.htm

[sulla felix]

Anthony, in answer to your point 3, that very much seems to depend upon the time period you wish to depict. AFAIK a late Republican/early Imperial period is likely to be a two belt scenario. The two belt rig seems to gradually go out of use/fashion from mid-first century AD, moving to a single belt with pugio and apron and a baldric (think this is the right term) for the gladius.

[Marcus Mummius]

The two belt rig seems to gradually go out of use/fashion from mid-first century AD, moving to a single belt with pugio and apron and a baldric (think this is the right term) for the gladius.

Although the two belt style still existed around 79AD (Herculaneum soldier).

[Matthew Amt]

When I look at examples of Roman Soldier sculptures, both legionary and auxiliaries, almost all appear to be wearing two belts.

The top belt holds the gladius, which is worn on the right hip, the second belt, underneath the first, hangs behind and holds the pugio.

So far, so good, except I think there is some variation on which belt goes on top. Sorry, no way I can come up with documentation, I'm just remembering this from a discussion several years ago! But as I recall, either of the two belts could be on top. Whichever was on top had the apron, if there was one.

I would definitely say that if two belts are worn, one is for the pugio and one for the gladius. We do NOT see two belts worn WITH a shoulder baldric for the sword.

1. Is it possible that the modern recreation method of hanging the pugio from a strap attached to one belt was a misinterpretation?

In all fairness, I only see centurion reenactors doing that, and that's what old Facilis seems to have. Though it COULD be that his pugio belt is simply very narrow?

3. Should we ideally be wearing two belts and hanging the pugio directly to the frogs?

I always advocate simply tying the pugio rings to the frogs with thongs, keeping them as close together as possible. That's how all those illustrations are, with the rings right up level with the frogs. Not sure I entirely buy the idea of fixing the rings themselves around the frogs, but it's as good a guess as many! (I'd have to get better ring, though, since mine have a habit of pulling open!) I've never liked the little straps with "buttonhole" slits that many folks use.

Other folks have mentioned that there isn't much evidence for the shoulder baldric in the mid-first century AD, only later. So we should lean more towards putting the gladius on the belt. Otherwise, yup, we pretty much go with what you said!

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

I'm fairly certain that in most examples the pugio belt is the apron belt and worn underneath the sword belt. There are one or two examples where the apron seems to be from the top sword belt, but could as easily be the apron pulled under and over both belts for show. IIRC there's one example of both the sword and pugio seemingly on the same belt, but that could easily be a misinterpretation of the sculpture, as the tie rings on both scabbards aren't visible.