Clavi question

[tiberius aemilius naso]

I have to agree with Christian here. But... a year ago or so someone in a Spanish forum with some kind of relation with the Egadi islands battle underwater diggins said that some Apullo-Corinthians had been found recently, still unpublished. That would change what we know of this helmets. It is just a rumour for the moment, and it could be completely false, just to let you know about it!

[T. Flavius]

Ah well... I hope the people will forgive the occasional mistake. With 76 illustrations, there are bound to be a few.

Tricky question time! Are clavi on the back as well?

[Martin Moser]

Tricky question time! Are clavi on the back as well?

Easy answer: yes. And there's actual finds to pove that many times over.
Actually the way many tunics were woven, it would have been harder to not have them both on the front and the back :-)

[T. Flavius]

Cool! Wish all answers were that easy.

[attachment=9497]doc_18_lentupaull.jpg[/attachment]

Here's the pencils. Lentulus on the left; on the right, Lucius Aemilius Paullus.

(And someone's going to tell me that nobody wore musculatae in battle, that the Romans just loved to portray them. Well, for a good reason. Putting my high-ranking Roman officers in metal armour is a choice of aesthetics in this case.)

[Decebalus]

To come back to the Apulo-Corinthian helmets for a moment:
Christian is totally right that we have no archaeological evidence for their use after the (very) early 3rd Century BC, and I would probably omitt them in a reconstruction drawing of one or two Roman soldiers in the time of Cannae, BUT as you have to equip lots of figures with armour and helmets in your story you would end up with a bunch of white pages if you solely would use equipment confirmed by archaeology. So especially for the officers and most of the Carthaginians you have to rely on works of art and that the Apulo-Corinthian appear together with the "Attic" (and other Hellenistic types) helmet in Roman art till the later Empire it might be a hint that they never died out totally. They had at least a renaissance in the Weisenau/Guttmann, Weiler/Koblenz-Bubenheim and Theilenhofen type helmets for the Attic form and the Hedderheim type for the Apulo-Corinthian. I personally believe that they also existed in some variants from the Republic on but probably in much lesser numbers than for example the Montefortino. Being worn perhaps only by officers would explain their absence from the archaeological record.
Sadly there are not that much depictions of Roman soldiers of the late 3rd C. BC so you have to rely on the chronological near as possible sources.
From what I've seen of your work until now .and given that some of your reconstructions had to built up from nearly no sources you don't need to have a headache in case of "authenticity".

[T. Flavius]

Those are very heartening words! Thank you.

The question remains (and I have more than one tribune to outfit): What helmets would they be wearing instead? Scipio needs one too. And the consuls? Do we have anything to go by? I wouldn't know of anything. In the Ospreys, they're mostly wearing Apulo-Corinthians, as are the triarii.

[Graham Sumner]

Christian,
We need you more often on this forum

There would be lots of reconstruction paintings and re-enactors with bits missing if he was!!! :whistle: :dizzy: :wink:

Graham.

[Antonius Insulae]

Tribuni, Consules and other high ranking republican officers could wear Roman Attic helmets, and other Hellenistic styles such as Thracian helmets. The third picture is a Thracian style hellenistic helmet, 1st, 2nd and 4th being Attic types.

The last picture is my own drawing, and it probably needs some explanation.
It is a page from my upcoming "thesis" in a University of Applied Sciences. I'm making a role-playing game about ancient Rome, more precisely at the end of the Republic, from the battle of Carrhae 53 BCE onwards. I'm making a book out of it, which contains the game rules and the story which the game master tells to the players and which they act upon with their characters. It aims to realism and authenticity, and I especially like detail in illustration, which I will of course provide myself as part of the thesis in my graphic design studies.
This page of the book contains the helmets available for players playing Roman characters, from the common soldier helmets all the way to the consul's helm. I consider the bottom row of helmets suitable for high ranking republican Roman officers, the helmets being from left to right: Pseudo-Corinthian (with a different crest for an officer) , Apulo-Corinthian (Etrusco-Corinthian in my Finnish original), and (Roman) Attic(an) helmet (for consul).
While making this illustration, I were not aware that none of the found Apulo-Corinthians were lacking cheek-guards, and proper attachments for them. Now it seems that they didn't have cheek-guards at all, at least they're not supported by archaeological finds (I'm not sure about reliefs though).
Of course the Port, Agen and Coolus helmets are too new for your Punic Wars timeframe anyway.

[T. Flavius]

Any bits in particular, Graham? :grin:


That's a great project, Sakari, thanks for sharing and explaining! An ancient Rome RPG sounds great. I wonder why I never tried that (long-time gamer here).

Would it really be that out of the way for some ACs to have cheekpieces? Of course, this is the designer and illustrator speaking, not the reconstructor (which I'll never be anyway - I lack the patience!), with the desire to set off my artwork from computer game graphics or sloppy comics in which everyone is dressed out like a clone.

[Martin Moser]

First of all, excellent drawings! I really like your style and craftsmanship!

Here's the pencils. Lentulus on the left; on the right, Lucius Aemilius Paullus.

If you allow me the knitpicking: the clavi on Lentullus' tunic appear oddly placed. Typically they are just to the sides of the neckhole rather than ending in it. Like this:



Different tunic and veeeery broad clavi, but I think you get what I'm trying to say.

[Antonius Insulae]

Thanks Jenny!

Nice to here you're a gamer too! Ancient Roman RPG has been very long time in my mind, and there seems to be none of them, which would've been made accurately. "Hollywood Roman" expansions for D&D aren't enough for me.

I've always thought Apulo-Corinthians WITH cheekpieces, and I personally don't like very much helmets without them. It was completely new information for me, that none of the surviving 59 examples of those helmets don't actually have cheekpieces or proper hinges for applying them. I'm just now reading Paddock's thesis about it, but it has nearly 900 pages, so it's quite a task...
In my opinion though it's not possible that there could've been cheekpieces added to them, even though we havent find those exact helmets (yet?). The relief on the altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus (circa 122 BCE) shows a tribunus with an Apulo-Corinthian helm. But it hadn't cheekpieces after all, even though I remembered it did!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...vre_n2.jpg

[T. Flavius]

Thanks for all the great help here! Martin, wow, they mean "lati", don't they? Okay.

[attachment=9504]doc_18_lentuluspaullus.jpg[/attachment]

They appear slightly slimmer here due to the perspective, but the placement should be all right now.

Sakari, yes, like Leather Bracers of Featherfall +3.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Graham is right. Writing here takes too much of my time, normally, so I opt to just not write something most of the time. I also have the impression that too many new threads simply repeat what had been stated somewhere on the forum earlier. Many posts seem to be just there to increase the number of postings listed under the profile picture of some members. In regard of this I do not open many threads any more, as I have too often made the experience to load up a couple of completely senseless postings. I know quite a number of people which do likewise since about a year or two or so, but which originally were valuable contributors.

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

I understand. However, the problem is that it is a downward spiral. The more valuable contributors, as you call them, drop out (and I can think of quite a few) because of a descending level of discussion or lack of 'new' threads, the less interesting it becomes on here, which makes people drop out. A shame, really...

[caiusbeerquitius]

Any bits in particular, Graham?

Whooo-oooh! I´m NOT reponsible for those. Unless they are bronze, maybe.

In my opinion though it's not possible that there could've been cheekpieces added to them, even though we havent find those exact helmets (yet?). The relief on the altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus (circa 122 BCE) shows a tribunus with an Apulo-Corinthian helm. But it hadn't cheekpieces after all, even though I remembered it did!

No. That is not an Apulo-Corinthian. It has been discussed here already thoroughly. Of course you cannot rule out an Apulo-Corinthian with cheek-pieces. Just as gunpowder in Roman times. It might just show up one time. Or maybe a Steam Engine.

Pseudo-Corinthian (with a different crest for an officer) , Apulo-Corinthian (Etrusco-Corinthian in my Finnish original), and (Roman) Attic(an) helmet (for consul).

As you are reading Paddock now you probably are aware that you are mixing up the typology and terminology. ;-)

A shame, really...

Yes, isn´t it? As long as there is no forum rule that forces you to first use the search tool in combination with a strict moderation for this, the spiral will continue to go downwards, I assume. A "Check your facts before you post"-rule might also be helpful. Similarly the site´s projects simply died, like the helmet database etc. despite there being many volunteers to keep them going again. But, what the heck. That´s that.