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Paul McDonnell-Staff you got laudes for prompting me starting this.
I was also inspired to start this by a lot of inter imposing threads.
Admins please feel free to move where appropriate.
Hoplite metal armor I do not have much evidence.
Slingers though with lead billets could crack the bones under
the metal cuirass. Guess that´s the reason why Greek missle troops were mostly slingers rather than archers.
In the linothorax threads Jason Hofmann gave a very scientific experimetal
approach to linothorax rsistance.
I also did a questionable experiment with kitchen blades against linothorax
layers covering frozen meat.
Leather armor penetration.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=15387
Ancient medieval hide processing: (courtesy of travis Clark)
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... l.html#cb3
I must specify that ancient hide armor evidence are weak
compaired to other types.
Somewhere there are threads about chain mail resistance.
If someone here knows where they are please post links.
Kind regards
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Hi Stefanos,
I suspect you have started a topic that will run and run............
I have a 300 page unpublished thesis, carried out on a multi-disciplinary basis, on the subject of "The effectiveness of Greek armour in the Persian Wars". It provides a great deal of scientific research on the subject - ballistics, energy of weapons and so on, and so on.
Unfortunately, because the material can't even be stated with any
certainty, it is very brief on the subject of non-metal corselets !
It is very good on helmets, metallic armour and shields. I haven't time to expound at length, but will contribute bits and pieces as the thread develops.
Well done for raising a great subject !!
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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For tests against iron and steel plate, and mail armour see Alan Williams' The Knight and the Blast Furnace Chapter 9. It is by far the most comprehensive work so far published.
For longbow arrows vs plate: "A report of the findings of the Defence Academy warbow trials Part 1 Summer 2005." By Paul Bourke and David Whetham. Arms and Armour (Vol 4, No 1, 2007), pp.53-82.
My review is here.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79261
For a study of the effects of single-handed thrusting attacks see:
Horsfall et al. "An Assessment of Human Performance in Stabbing," Forensic Science International, 102 (1999). 79-89.
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Hi,
a chapter on the efficacy of armour against weapons in ancient times is in
Metz, K.S. - Gabriel, R.A.: From Sumer to Rome: The Military Capabilities of Ancient Armies, New York, 1991.
Greetings
Alexandr
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Hi, Dan
You evidently have a deep interest in the whole subject of armour,and I do too !! Is "The knight and the Blast Furnace" readily obtainable ?
I have read of the change in metallurgy that changed the balance between arrow/weapons v. plate armour, and I expect from the title that the book in question covers it ?
Same goes for the book Alexandr mentions--where can you get it ?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Hi Paul,
Amazon has the book [amazon]From Sumer to Rome[/amazon]. And interlibrary loans can also be very useful, especially for very expensive books or books which are long unavailable in book shops.
Greetings
Alexandr
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Greetings,
my story dates to 1983 when my best friend worked for a school based travelling history show. He relays that one day he accidently stabbed at his linothorax equiped employer - harder than he was meant to. He was impressed that the armour "caved" in and then "popped" back out again.
Perhaps this could be the self healing armour that i have just read about in another thread??
This linothorax was made thicker than the Connoly reconstruction..
Regards,
Richard R in Armidale
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Williams' work is hard to find. I had to buy a used copy. It cost me around $US200. Worth every cent.
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Richard
Manning imperial done number test over the Last few months.
Craig from Manning remarked to me how easy it was for sharp iron sword to cut through linen armour. His quote to me was "I know why they went to iron and bronze, linen is crap armour. Even a moderate blow with a sharp sword cuts right through".
From his cut test the shield is the main protect the linen is only ancillary protection at best. This why I believe the evidence for the quilted approach is probably more accurate, as the hide and glued linen is very easy to cut through once the weapons is edge and delivered with moderate force.
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Oh, dear, that doesn't seem to marry up with the evidence regarding linenlayers that Dan refers to....
Can you give us a better idea of what exactly was being tested and under what circumstances----as an example, tie a piece of armour to a tree trunk and whack it, then tie it to a punch bag and whack it.........totally different results.
Fire an arrow at ten metres, then at fifty metres....different results.
Crude examples, I know, but they illustrate the point. You need to know the circumstances.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Quote:Craig from Manning remarked to me how easy it was for sharp iron sword to cut through linen armour. His quote to me was "I know why they went to iron and bronze, linen is crap armour. Even a moderate blow with a sharp sword cuts right through".
No. He knows why the ancients never used glue in the construction of the linothorax. Quilting provides a marked improvement in its protective capability. Also, try some decent linen, not the rubbish sold in places such as Ikea. The closest you can get today would be the finer linen used to make tablecloths.
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This is not going to be the easiest subject, is it.......????
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Dat would be de best Oirish table linen, den. Oi has a bit o'dat but it's moighty expensive, 'an oi doubts wheder me (oirish ) wife would approve of me using our best Oirish linen wedding presents for experimental purposes........
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Paul
It was reject linen thorax 15 layer of glued linen that was made by one of our members in the Sydney ancients to what we believe was the right thickness.
Attached to sandbag on a rope, with broken sword sharpened he was able with a moderate swing to cut the armour at the at the waist to Length of about foot and into the sandbag.
Craig from Manning was very surprised as thought it would have provide much more protection. His conclusion was it would be moderate protection from a deflected blow but not much more. It drove home to me that the shield, helm and greaves are probably the most important items in protect ones self.
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His conclusion is flawed because the reconstruction had nothing in common with what was actually worn on the battlefield. There are many different types of linen. Most people think that modern manufacturing processes mean that we have better quality textiles than the ancients had. The opposite is in fact true. Any fabric that you purchased that is called "linen" would hardly be worth making rags from in earlier periods. Even the finer linen used today to make tablecloths would have been low grade compared to what the ancients had available. In addition, the amount of mechanical handling performed on natural fibres today greatly reduce the tensile strength of them - making them even less suitable for making armour. Add to that the fact that the armour was glued rather than quilted. I have already demonstrated in a previous thread why the "glue" theory is no longer supportable.
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