Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
For D.B. Campbell :- there is now an on-line Pausanias (you can readily google it) and the reference is to Pausanias 1.21.7 which is also discussed in the "Linothorakes" thread page 8 by Duncan Head and others in Jan 2006............
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Posts: 3,616
Threads: 130
Joined: Apr 2004
Reputation:
52
Quote:For D.B. Campbell :- there is now an on-line Pausanias ...
Of course there is, Paul: Pausanias at Perseus. I must've been having a senior moment! :oops:
Posts: 418
Threads: 38
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
Look in Roman Military Clothing (2) and you'll see a picture of a Roman phalangite (AD 214) in the illustrations section. He is wearing a linen cuirass. Obviously it wasn't forgotten and rather nostaligic from the way it was treated. I don't think it was probably bad armor, but it would be interesting to do some tests.
Aur Aur Desparta Ferra
Derek D. Estabrook
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 415
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
77
Quote:Look in Roman Military Clothing (2) and you'll see a picture of a Roman phalangite (AD 214) in the illustrations section. He is wearing a linen cuirass. Obviously it wasn't forgotten and rather nostaligic from the way it was treated. I don't think it was probably bad armor, but it would be interesting to do some tests.
Did you read the text? Either this man was kitted out like that because of some weird idea, or the sources were not altogether sure how to decribe the equipment. Anyway, this 'dress-up-like-a-phalangite' action was a one-off and not something for the regular infantry.
Posts: 418
Threads: 38
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
I read the text. I don't think it was something used commonly at that time and I fiqured it probably wasn't duplicated elsewhere, but it was interesting. If accurate, it also shows that people were fairly in touch with history as well.
Derek D. Estabrook
Posts: 4,029
Threads: 90
Joined: May 2005
Reputation:
0
Pausanias states his opinion but he was not a military man.
Modern experimntation proved that 15 to 30 layers of linen stop a lot of things. Pleae linothorax threads in the Greek section.
Probably the Roman subarmalis was not so thick or was not intended to offer the same degree of protection.
Kind regards
Posts: 1,966
Threads: 79
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
22
Ironhand wrote: [/b]
Quote:Look in Roman Military Clothing (2) and you'll see a picture of a Roman phalangite (AD 214) in the illustrations section. He is wearing a linen cuirass. Obviously it wasn't forgotten and rather nostaligic from the way it was treated. I don't think it was probably bad armor, but it would be interesting to do some tests.
Robert wrote:
Quote:Did you read the text? Either this man was kitted out like that because of some weird idea, or the sources were not altogether sure how to decribe the equipment. Anyway, this 'dress-up-like-a-phalangite' action was a one-off and not something for the regular infantry.
It might appear to us a weird idea but Caracalla was no hands off emperor. He mixed with the troops and lived the life of a common soldier. Whether he believed that a phalanx was more suitable for his proposed Parthian expedition than a legion formation or that simply the army was overdue for reform we will probably never know. However the description of the equipment produced should not be ignored as Cassius Dio was a military man himself and not an armchair historian. He clearly did not think that linen armour and leather helmets were useless, nevertheless the sudden need to equip 16,000 troops in this manner might explain why this armour was introduced. Strangely Caracalla also wore a linen breastplate under his everyday clothes because he feared assassination!. Did not work though, he got stabbed to death while taking a leak behind a rock!
Was it a one off? well the third century soldier appears to have more in common with Caracalla's phalanx than the earlier legionaries, longer spears and swords, lighter armour, oval shields. The late Roman infantryman like Robert depicts did not appear overnight, there was a period of transition, experimentation and development which took place from the time of Caracalla onwards.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 415
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
77
Quote:Was it a one off? well the third century soldier appears to have more in common with Caracalla's phalanx than the earlier legionaries, longer spears and swords, lighter armour, oval shields. The late Roman infantryman like Robert depicts did not appear overnight, there was a period of transition, experimentation and development which took place from the time of Caracalla onwards.
Graham.
I agree, but there is clearly a difference between the phalangite as drawn by you and the phalangite-like infantry described by Arrian and Maurikios, which we believe to have been the more common Late Roman infantry. Roman infantry could and did operate sometimes as a phalanx after the introduction of manipel-based tactics, although we should keep in mind of course that this does not mean a classic Greek or Macedonian phalanx, but the front ranks operating as one.
Your reconstruction shows a small shield, a very long spear and fairly typical armour. That’s not what late Roman infantry looked like.
Like you said, this type of infantry did not appear overnight, and the available equipment for these soldiers would not prevent them acting as a phlanx-like unit (see Arrian’s description). Which is why I can’t see the need to suddenly equip 16.000 infantrymen overnight either.
Therefore, if the equipment is, as you say, based on reality, I still would rather see it as origination as a result of Caracalla’s ideas about Alexandrian conquests?
Posts: 3,616
Threads: 130
Joined: Apr 2004
Reputation:
52
Quote:... Cassius Dio was a military man himself and not an armchair historian.
Really, Graham?! What makes you think that?
Posts: 1,966
Threads: 79
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
22
Quote:Graham Sumner wrote:
... Cassius Dio was a military man himself and not an armchair historian.
Really, Graham?! What makes you think that?
As so many upper class Romans did their 'National Service' I guess it is unfair to call any of them totally armchair historians. However Cassius Dio seems to have done rather a lot. As Curator of Pergamum and of Smyrna then Governor of Africa, Dalmatia and Pannonia Superior I thought he might have had more contact with soldiers than most, even if only in a ceremonial capacity. My suggestion was that when someone of his calibre say's Caracalla equipped his troops with linen and leather armour I am fairly sure he is not making it up or has made a mistake. Nevertheless you can correct me if I am wrong Duncan.
Quote:but there is clearly a difference between the phalangite as drawn by you and the phalangite-like infantry described by Arrian and Maurikios, which we believe to have been the more common Late Roman infantry. Roman infantry could and did operate sometimes as a phalanx after the introduction of manipel-based tactics, although we should keep in mind of course that this does not mean a classic Greek or Macedonian phalanx, but the front ranks operating as one.
Your reconstruction shows a small shield, a very long spear and fairly typical armour. That’s not what late Roman infantry looked like.
Robert, I was not implying that your kit evolved directly from the Caracallan phalangite. I am not sure the linen cuirass would be regarded as fairly typical Roman armour of any period but I am interested to learn that you think it so. Nevertheless I am inclined to agree that Caracalla was trying to emulate Alexander and therefore by implication his troops as well.
As far as I know Arrian drew up his legionaries in phalanx formation and as you say there is no evidence he re-equipped them in any way or that they used, what we call in English, a pike. The legionaries simply held out their existing pila and this was used as an an anti cavalry formation as we have discussed before. Perhaps the heavily armoured legionaries would not have been happy with the further weight of a long pike and that was why Caracalla introduced the linen and leather equipment?
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
Posts: 3,616
Threads: 130
Joined: Apr 2004
Reputation:
52
Quote:As so many upper class Romans did their 'National Service' I guess it is unfair to call any of them totally armchair historians. However Cassius Dio seems to have done rather a lot. As Curator of Pergamum and of Smyrna then Governor of Africa, Dalmatia and Pannonia Superior I thought he might have had more contact with soldiers than most, even if only in a ceremonial capacity. My suggestion was that when someone of his calibre say's Caracalla equipped his troops with linen and leather armour I am fairly sure he is not making it up or has made a mistake. Nevertheless you can correct me if I am wrong Duncan.
Apologies, Graham. I had overlooked Dio's governorship of (very military) Upper Pannonia (omitted, for some reason, from the OCD2 entry).
|
