Thickness of type B dagger plates

[maarten]

The method I used (etching and then chisseling) makes perfect figurines and lines like on the originals. By first etching the lines it is much easier not to make any mistakes and scratches. The trick is not to put to much pressure onto the chissel.

Maarten

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Great info... I almost feel like i could tackle the task now! :lol: :lol:

[maarten]

your welcome, good luck

maarten

[Magnus]

Yeah, i'll be attempting a Type B scabbard plate later this summer or early fall. There is a tool company out west of me in Canada that sells all kinds of metal engravers, of varrying width.

http://www.lacywest.com/20grave.htm

Scroll down a bit, it shows all the different kinds.

By chance, does anyone know which ones I should get? From the descriptions there, it seems the "Onglette" type are specific for inlay work because they are pointed. I guess those are the ones I want eh? Probably the 1.16 mm, and maybe the 1.5 or 2 mm?

[Marcus Mummius]

Maarten said the wire inlay was most of the time between 0.2 and 0.4... So 1.5-2mm would make the channels much too wide. You need finer gravers to do the work.

I have a few more questions for you Maarten.

1. What kind of bitumen is it you use (or is it picth/'pek'?)? What are the ingredients, rations?

2. I don't know the english terms so I'll use the dutch ones. I was planning to use a 'vlaksteker' to make the channels square after etching and a 'spitssteker' to cut the undercut (swallow's tail). Is this a good idea?

3. Do you anneal the metal after the etching to make the cutting easier?

Thanks again for the help and laudes to you!

[Peroni]

I was always of the impression that the channels were triangular or 'undercut' to hold in the wire. You'll need special chisels to do this work Jef!

[Marcus Mummius]

I was always of the impression that the channels were triangular or 'undercut' to hold in the wire. You'll need special chisels to do this work Jef!

Eeerm, yes, I know

A swallow's tail is basicly a channel with an undercut at both sides...

I thought that with one type of graver/chisel you can make the etched groove rectangular in cross section and then remove material in the corners to create the undercut...

If this works is one of the questions I asked Maarten.

[Peroni]

Ah! I see what you mean now. :wink:

[Martin Moser]

From my personal experience with inlay work I can say that a chiseled channel will hold the wire even if it is not undercut/swallowtailed. If you want to be on the safe side however, the swallowtailed crosssection, i.e. undercutting the initial u-shaped channel is certainly a good idea.

[Marcus Mummius]

From my personal experience with inlay work I can say that a chiseled channel will hold the wire even if it is not undercut/swallowtailed. If you want to be on the safe side however, the swallowtailed crosssection, i.e. undercutting the initial u-shaped channel is certainly a good idea.

Indeed, a u-shaped channel is often good enough, especialy if your design has a lot of twists and turns. It could be problematic for flat straight lines though.

[Magnus]

Jeez, where do you get gravers that small then?

[Marcus Mummius]

At jewelry tool stores. I picked up a few last week.

[Crispvs]

Sorry not to have responded to this earlier. I have been offline for the last fortnight or so.

Just to add to the good advice already given in the posts above, Erik told me that for narrow inlaid lines a square cut u-shaped channel was ideal, as the silver can spread into it as it is squashed by the hammering, which also folds the steel back over the edges of the channel, thus gripping the silver. He said that for wider pieces of silver, particularly shaped pieces such as wedges, pediments and lunas, the channels need to be undercut to provide an extra degree of grip on the larger pieces of silver. One thing he said was absolutely crucial though (and this is what I have found most challenging so far) particularly for narrower lines, was that the depth of the channels should be consistently equal to two thirds of the thickness of the silver wire to be inlaid. This is to allow the silver to spread tightly but without standing proud of the edge of the channel, which would be less able to close over it and hold it in place.
Erik also recommended not cutting your silver wire to length first, as the hammering can modify the length of the wire somewhat. He recommends placing the end of a longer piece of wire in the channel against another piece of inlay which has already been done and which runs in a different direction. This means that there should be a close joint between the two pieces where they meet. When you come to the end of the channel cut the wire (with a small chisel). This allows you to inlay the full channel without the fear of having too little or too much wire when it came to the end. If inlaying a channel which runs between two other channels going in another direction which have already been inlaid it might be best to very carefully cut the wire with wirecutters rather than a chisel. I noted that Erik also used a small puch with his hammer to get a more precise position on the wire as he hammered it. I have not been able to get a puch like he was using so I intend to grind down the end of a normal centre punch.

One thing I would strongly recommend to anyone wanting to try this sort of work is to practice on scrap steel first. First practice control of the graver, then, having achieved this, try to achieve simple stright lines and controlled curves with both consistent line and depth. Once you have got the hang of that, get hold of some copper wire (which is much closer in its plasticity to silver than brass is) and practice inlaying, still working on scrap mild steel. Practice achieving longer and longer straight lines.
Once you are satisfied that you won't make too much of a hash of your inlay, you can start working on the actual front plate. I cut my front plate to shape around four years ago now but I am still practicing on scrap steel (mind you, I would probably have achieved a satisfactory standard and got started on the front plate were it not for the new found responsibility of being a parent).

On another unrelated but still relevant matter, I note that several of the grip plates from Vindonissa are 2-2.5mm thick at the guard and slightly curved, but are just 1mm or less thick at the pommel expansion, by which point they are also quite flat.

I hope this has been helpfull to someone.

Crispvs

[Magnus]

Is all the inlay that small? I got the impression that some of the pictures posted on that thread that Cezar made, that some of the inlay was wider like in the 1mm range?

[Marcus Mummius]

Is all the inlay that small? I got the impression that some of the pictures posted on that thread that Cezar made, that some of the inlay was wider like in the 1mm range?

A lot of these type B plates are really small. I made a pattern for one from Vindonissa and I'm surprised how slender and small it is. The ones from Mainz are a bit broader though.