Pergamon relief

[Conal]

I have read that there are illustrations of arms on this but can't find a sausage on Google .... plenty of pictures but none of arms.

Can anyone help please?

[Dan Diffendale]

I'm assuming you mean an arms frieze, and the Pergamon Altar that's now in Berlin...? I'm not sure where on the monument they would be, since the main frieze is a Gigantomachy, and the frieze in the peristyle is the myth of Telephus. There are various weapons in the hands of the gods and giants...

[Decebalus]

There are weapon reliefs still on the Propylon and some which are now displayed alone.
They show Hellenistic and Galatian armour and weapons and date to c. 180 BC.
It`s all on display in Berlin, Pergamon-Museum.
Pictures of many of these reliefs are published in most works regarding Hellenistic or Celtic arms and armour.
Perhaps I can help with pictures?

Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann

[Conal]

There are weapon reliefs still on the Propylon and some which are now displayed alone.
They show Hellenistic and Galatian armour and weapons and date to c. 180 BC.
It`s all on display in Berlin, Pergamon-Museum.
Pictures of many of these reliefs are published in most works regarding Hellenistic or Celtic arms and armour.
Perhaps I can help with pictures?

Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann

If you have pictures that would be great. I'm researching Celtic swords and understand that there are a few grips illustrated in the reliefs.

[Decebalus]

Conal,
I`ve to leave home now but will provide pictures as soon as possible!


Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann

[MeinPanzer]

If you have pictures that would be great. I'm researching Celtic swords and understand that there are a few grips illustrated in the reliefs.

Just a few comments.

The items on the Pergamon weapons relief are extremely hard to judge the ownership of- even seemingly Celtic weapons cannot be judged as being Galatian because by the second century BC, the Hellenistic kingdoms like the Seleucids (to whom most of the items on the frieze belong) were already making use of Gallic-style swords.

Not all of the parts of the relief are on display in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin, IIRC. There are several fragments which contain parts of helmets, shields, and weapons which have only been published in a few sources. The best one is P. Jaeckel, "Pergamenische Waffenreliefs" in Waffen- und Kostümkunde: Zeitschrift der Gesellschaft für Historisches Waffen- und Kostümkunde volume 7, 1965. Looking through it, I can find 2 swords which could be Celtic, but also could be Seleucid.

[Laran]

Some photos here

http://forum.xlegio.ru/photos/photo-thu ... albumid=12

[Decebalus]

The East-Celtic helmet depicted on one of the reliefs looks very like real ones found in East-Celtic graves, so we can assume that the other depicted weapons and armours have been modelled with the same accuracy on actual trophies.
I agree that Hellenistic forces would have made use of Celtic or Celtic-style weapons and armour (and the Celts of Hellenistic) but the origin of some of the depicted items like the mentioned helmet-type, the flat oval thureos-shield, the mail-shirt is clearly Celtic/Galatian.
The only sword-hilt I found which looks like Celtic La-Tène-style is the one on this relief.

Greets,

Decebalus/Andreas Gagelmann

[MeinPanzer]

I agree that Hellenistic forces would have made use of Celtic or Celtic-style weapons and armour (and the Celts of Hellenistic) but the origin of some of the depicted items like the mentioned helmet-type, the flat oval thureos-shield, the mail-shirt is clearly Celtic/Galatian.
The only sword-hilt I found which looks like Celtic La-Tène-style is the one on this relief.

Yes, that one helmet is undoubtedly Gallic, but the mail-shirts and especially the shields are not so clear. By the second century BC, the thureos was widely used by the Seleucids, and mail was employed by them as well. In fact, only one thureos seems to be distinctly Celtic as it has a Celtic-style swirl pattern on it. The majority of the thureoi are most likely Seleucid.