Ornate pugio discussion

[Martin Moser]

But what's the point in looking your best when your gear that is supposed to be nice and blingish is worn away with use?

Obviously they saw a point in having it in quite that way as finds show.

To me it makes more sense to have the parts that aren't going to experience wear and tear look lovely, and keep the handles utilitarian.

Probably that's why you're Canadian, not Roman ;-) )

[Tarbicus]

There's also this little story from Mike Bishop about having tea with a Jordanian policeman:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 0571#90571

I once had tea with a desert policeman whilst parked-up, sheltering from the midday heat under a Hejjaz railway bridge when surveying one of the southern desert forts (Kithara) just outside Aqaba (the railway sliced right through the fort). Apart from his silver dagger and scarlet cloak, his camel also carried a stock of kindling to go with the teapot and tea. He didn't speak any English, we no Arabic, but a good time was had by all.

And that's just a modern policeman, but it's a valuable dagger in everyday use in the field, so to speak. Interesting he should wear a scarlet cloak as well......

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But what's the point in looking your best when your gear that is supposed to be nice and blingish is worn away with use?

Obviously they saw a point in having it in quite that way as finds show.

To me it makes more sense to have the parts that aren't going to experience wear and tear look lovely, and keep the handles utilitarian.

Probably that's why you're Canadian, not Roman ;-) )

Easy Tiger, some of us canadians actually like the bling on our daggers.... :lol: thats how I was suckered into buying the paul chen....... :oops: :oops: :lol:

[Magnus]

Hahaha, true enough Martin! But again, how do you know what's behind closed museum doors? I had a conversation with either Jasper or Sander a while back and he made mention that a lot of plain weaponry is kept in storage for the reason i mentioned before.

As Jim mentioned it may be that it sat in it's scabbard for most of the time. Who knows.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Slave,

It could be that most legionary would purchase only what they could initially afford, most likely plain non-ornate weapons but, once you were around for a while… it could have been sort of a ‘status symbolâ€

[Martin Moser]

Hahaha, true enough Martin! But again, how do you know what's behind closed museum doors?

I can't, of course :-) ) But I'm pretty sure that if there was an all over plain pugio dated to the time when all the other published ones are heavily decorated, it would have been published on grounds of being a remarkable exception to the rule. Beyond that it is of course impossible to state anything as "for sure" and you might still be right after all and contrary to what the published material indicates.
Besides, as you know, there are of course plain pugios of both earlier (BC) and later times (2/3rd cent. AD).

[Tarbicus]

Someone once mentioned that there's a record of a legionary using his pugio scabbard as security for a large loan.

As wealth is accumulated over the man's career why not put some of it into an easily transportable and highly practical item? The same with the belt. Today, we often don't put all of our money into one account or investment, but hedge our bets.

The other thing is that we assume the pugio could be easily lost. AFAIK, the typical method of suspending the pugio from the frogs is an ESG invention that everyone else followed. IIRC, if you look at Firmus' tombstone the pugio attachment rings look to be around the frogs, and most others seem to be directly in line with the frogs and tightly in line with the dagger belt. The major exception is the belt straps wrapped around and holding the pugio horizontally, which seems to be more of an original Spanish suspension method ( :?: ).

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well spotted, Jim! I have often noted the images seem to show what you mention about the attachment to belts! :? But figured the experts were in possession of more accurate info!

[Marcus Mummius]

I wonder how the suspension rings of the pugio scabbard could be directly attached to the frogs. Any sugestions?

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Salve,
I have noticed, too, that some pugiones seem to look like they were suspended from the frogs by their suspension rings. If you make the frogs a little closer together you could do this. Given the size of the discs
on my pugio frogs and the size of the rings it would be easy. Actually, the
frogs have to be far enough apart for the leather straps to hang properly.

[Tarbicus]

It's hardly proof by any means, but have you noticed how, on some tombstones, the belt plates and pugio plates match? Especially Rhineland soldiers. Not saying it is (!), but perhaps indicating they were both made as a matching set, in which case the frogs could be at just the right distance to suspend the pugio by the rings?

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

Can someone post a few images of the pugio being hanged from the frogs directly?

[Tarbicus]

Some are questionable, but some do seem to be completely different to the leather strapped way of hanging, and a few seem (only to my mind) definitely attached to the frog by the ring.

Daverzus
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Firmus
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Hyperanor (difficult to see)
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Facilis
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Lorarius (at front, straps around)
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Pintaius
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Cordus (this one definitely is IMHO)
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Secundus (his looks distant from the frog)
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Pantera
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Unknown engineer Cologne
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Unknown miles Cologne
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Unknown miles Mainz
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Thanks! I really didn't look closely enough before.

Also I am wrong or is nearly everyone wearing two belts?

One belt for the gladius and a second belt (underneath the first) for the pugio? With the pugio hanging lower on the left side?

Could Romans have worn two belts and that second belt was misinterpreted as leather hanging from the first?

[Tarbicus]

Could Romans have worn two belts and that second belt was misinterpreted as leather hanging from the first?

Absolutely, it's seen all over the place. Mainly Late Republic, Augustan, and into the third quarter of the 1st C AD, I think.

To illustrate what I was banging on about with the pugio attachment to the frogs (forgive the pugio). If you have Obmann's book on pugiones, take a look at:
Tafel 48 - 3
Tafel 49 - 2
Tafel 51 - 2
Tafel 54 - 2

added: I don't suggest all pugiones were attached with this method. Tafel 50 - 3 in Obmann seems to show a strip going from the ring to the frog.