Ornate pugio discussion

[Magnus]

Would have needed pretty big suspension loops on the scabbard to slip over the frogs eh Jim? Any finds of scabbards with very large rings?

[Tarbicus]

Would have needed pretty big suspension loops on the scabbard to slip over the frogs eh Jim? Any finds of scabbards with very large rings?

No, Matt, look at the photo. The rings can be slipped on very easily from behind the disc, or the disc can be attached after the pugio's in place. The photo I posted shows the former, which took five minutes (it's not an arrangement for a photo but the job actually done). Just solder the ring tight afterwards, or close it tight.

I'm not suggesting whatsoever that all pugiones were held in this manner (which I already said), and there are other flaws to the notion which I and others are looking at. But likewise, there's no physical evidence AFAIK that the pugio was held in place always using leather straps, although I already pointed out one tombstone in Obmann that seems to be the case.

AFAIK, none of the tombstones show the pugio hanging by a 3+ inch strap from the frog as seen on many re-enactors, but were very tight to the frogs to the point that they may as well have been attached directly by the ring where applicable. The only exception seems to be when a very long strap comes all the way around from the opposite hip.

[Crispvs]

I agree that the straps most re-enactors use to suspend their pugiones are too long. However, I do not believe on the current evidence that the suspension rings could be slipped over the suspension disks on dagger frogs. The actual suspension rings found with sheaths employing type 'A' suspension are considerably smaller than those of the (thankfully now no longer produced) piece of rubbish in the photo. Also, I do not know of any evidence for suspension discs being removeable.
The photos you posted links to do demonstrate two things however. Firstly, they demonstrate that the suspension rings were sometimes so close to the suspension discs on the frog that they were sometimes overlapped by them, suggesting attachment by thonging rather than the method normally used by re-enactors.
Secondly, some of them, in particular Pantera and the unknown soldier from Mainz (I thought he was from Bonn - oh well, never mind), show that the pugio could be attached to the belt without using frogs. Presumably these sheaths are attached to the belts with small straps or thonging which passes behind the belt. This suggests that the normally unused lower suspension rings might, in some cases, have been used for suspension directly to a belt.

Anthony,

The disc you mention as being present at the foot of the sheath is known as the terminal expansion and yes, there probably should be one on every reproduction sheath. Added to that, it should be pierced through the centre by a large head / decoratively headed rivet, something which seems to be missing from many modern attempts to recreate pugio sheaths. Interestingly, a sheath from Melun in France showed that sometimes the terminal expansion might take the form of a separate disc which was held in the correct position by the terminal rivet.

As to undecorated sheaths, the only two undecorated type 'A' sheaths I am familiar with are two from Mainz. I think I may have a picture of an undecorated type 'B' sheath but it might equally be that the surface is just too corroded - I do not have an x-ray to inform me. I also know of evidence for the possible existence of a completely undecorated type 'B' sheath but without knowing more about the circumstances of the find I cannot state it as anything more than a hopeful possibility. Thirdly, frame type sheaths appear plain, but a careful examination of the example from Titelberg showed it to have been extensively decorated with engraved decoration. Other less well preserved frame type sheaths may also have had this sort of decoration. It is also highly likely that the leather which is assumed to have been present on frame type sheaths and would have shown through the spaces in the frame would have been decorated in some way, either by tooling or by painting or staining.
Overall then, the vast majority of surviving sheaths are heavily decorated and only about three are not.

That said, the idea that the decoration was a method of carrying your wealth around is a misconception. The amount of silver used on most sheaths would only equal the amount of silver in between two and five denarii. Most of the percieved real value would be the workmanship of the piece. Then again, we know that sometimes more precious materials were used, as the example of a cavalryman (not a legionary to the best of my knowledge) putting up a dagger sheath decorated with ivory as security for a loan shows and that these materials clearly made the sheath more valuable.

One final point to make is that I know of no evidence to suggest that officers above the rank of centurio carried pugiones. Obviously they were available to them should they want them, but they do not seem to have formed part of the panoply of an officer such as a tribune or praefectus.

Crispvs

[Crispvs]

"but have you noticed how, on some tombstones, the belt plates and pugio plates match? Especially Rhineland soldiers"

They do NOT match. They only appear to match because the intricate detail which can be achieved on metal cannot be reprodused in stone, meaning that no matter how accurate a sculpture such as Annaius is, the sculptor will have been forced to use simplified decorative schemes to represent the decoration used on belt plates and dagger sheaths. This has made them appear similar in the stone sculpture.
When the actual items are examined it can be seen that the decorative schemes employed on dagger sheaths are not shared with those on belt plates. They are different pieces of kit and have their own distinct forms of decoration.


Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

"but have you noticed how, on some tombstones, the belt plates and pugio plates match? Especially Rhineland soldiers"

They do NOT match. They only appear to match because the intricate detail which can be achieved on metal cannot be reprodused in stone, meaning that no matter how accurate a sculpture such as Annaius is, the sculptor will have been forced to use simplified decorative schemes to represent the decoration used on belt plates and dagger sheaths. This has made them appear similar in the stone sculpture.
When the actual items are examined it can be seen that the decorative schemes employed on dagger sheaths are not shared with those on belt plates. They are different pieces of kit and have their own distinct forms of decoration.

Crispus, I appreciate your expertise on the subject of the pugio. However, the decoration on the pugiones DO MATCH the belt plates on the tombstones. There is an example where the pugio scabbard was simply not engraved. Why not just leave the others blank when there's no need to reproduce the complicated pattern with a chisel when PAINT would have done the job on a smooth surface?

[Crispvs]

I think an issue for the Roman sculptor would have been that dagger sheaths were, almost by definition, highly decorated things. That would have encouraged him to try and render an attempt to convey that decoration, even if it was to be augmented with paint later. Similarly, many type 'A' belt plates feature intricate patterns which are impossible to reproduce in stone. Here too the sculptor used a simplfied desighn from his existing repertoire to convey a sence of the decoration of the plate which could again be augmented later with paint.
I would have to concede that you are right that in some cases the dagger sheaths and belt plates are represented in sculpture as the same, but I would have to say that that represents a necessary simplification to convey a sense of reality. Belt plates featuring these patterns (the ones which appear to be the same as the decoration of the dagger sheaths) have yet to be identified in the archaeological record, and if found, would represent a radical departure from the standard types and patterns of belt plate which are so far known in large numbers.

Crispvs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

SALVE

As Crispus have said, many reenactors make his belts with a too wide space without belt plaques for the pugio.

For my new pugio, i use some leather cords, the same kind to tie the helmets, as you can see at that picture:

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Excuse me, it's too little:

[Tarbicus]

as the example of a cavalryman (not a legionary to the best of my knowledge) putting up a dagger sheath decorated with ivory as security for a loan shows and that these materials clearly made the sheath more valuable.

For some reason I completely missed that longer post. By sheer coincidence I was talking to the curator at the Museum of London today, asking about the ivory pugio handle there as I'm thinking of making a faux-ivory version. Any wild guesses as to what form the ivory scabbard would take?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Salute Cesar!

That is the same method I used to attach my pugio.! :wink:

[Crispvs]

Tarbicus,

Unfortunately I do not know and would not like to guess. Often it seems that the Romans prefered to use particular decorative styles with particular materials and we do not have an example of what they would have done with ivory if they had used it on a sheath. My guess is that the decoration would be likely to take a very different form to that done in silver inlay. Of course, there is the possibility that small pieces of ivory could have been used to vary the colour of the inlays in a normal scheme, being used in the same role as niello, red enamel and yellow enamel. However, if ivory was to be the primary decorative material I am sure it would feature a different style of decoration. Because of this, I would suggest avoiding the use of ivory or faux ivory on sheath plates until someone finds an actual example decorated with ivory.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

Crispvs, there's a photo of an ivory scabbard (spatha?) piece online somewhere. Can't remember where for the life of me. IIRC it's relief work of a figurative type. But then, pugio sheaths were fairly different to sword scabbards, it seems.