making an aspis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

...the inner diameter 73 cm.I assume this is without the rim?Othewise it's very small.I'm xonfused because he doen't say the inner diameter of the rim but of the shield.

[Dan Diffendale]

There are a couple of examples of a similar motif on aspides from Umbria:
See nos. 6 and 9, from Orvieto and Perugia.
http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~dpd/ ... plies.html

[PMBardunias]

I assume this is without the rim?

I think he means without the rim when he says "inner diameter". With the rim its about 80cm.

[Paullus Scipio]

As far as I am aware, virtually all rims from aspides that survive have this 'traditional' woven guilloche pattern. It seems to be rather like the 'seam' incised into one-piece Illyrian helmets long after they were made in two parts, a tradition that carried on.

[hoplite14gr]

No Paul. This design exists in the rims of the one here, the AthenianAgora example and a fragment from Munich that was found in Amyclae that are Laconian.
Other rim fragments from Olympia and Athens are undecorated.

We have reason to believe that the spiral is asociated with the Pamfileis Doric tribe.

Kind regards

[Anonymous]

There are a couple of examples of a similar motif on aspides from Umbria:
See nos. 6 and 9, from Orvieto and Perugia.
http://web-facstaff.sas.upenn.edu/~dpd/ ... plies.html

Wow! Number 6 is such a beautiful example, Dan! Thanks for posting.

[Paullus Scipio]

Other rim fragments from Olympia and Athens are undecorated

...I did say "virtually all", not "all" - I am aware that some rim fragments exist without the pattern, but the great majority, including the Etruscan (?) shield in the Vatican, and the Italian examples Dan posted have this rim pattern, or variations of it.

[PMBardunias]

We have reason to believe that the spiral is asociated with the Pamfileis Doric tribe.

What's the reason?

[The Wulf]

Speaking on aspis construction; i haven't made an aspis per-se however i have made a reenactment ready domed round shield.

i at first came up with the method that seems to be popular in greek reenactment, of donut layers of wood that would theoretically be the simplest method (please note at this point i hadn't looked up aspides for sale on the internet, or methods of their construction.)

nonetheless i then decided against this and instead used a perfectly authentic construction method of steaming a collection of planks to the right curve then assembling them into the afore mentioned reenactment dome shield, i made the shield of two layers of these planks with the grain running perpendicular to each other, and fastened the layers with glue first then treenails.

this method is no more difficult and requires only a few more tools and equipment (i.e. a fire, a water container preferably with a narrow neck, and another container to fit the planks in...)

the main point is this version costs far less wood and is more likely i think how the greeks would have made their shields considering it is unlikely they would have wasted immense amounts of wood on one shield, even moreso considering that to obtain wood of 3 foot by 3 foot size before modern plywood would require a tree 3 foot wide, there would be such trees but only in small numbers, certainly in ancient greece; thus not particularly practical for production on a large scale, each plank from the steaming method can be cut verticaly from the tree (also therefore adding to it's strength) while requiring a far thinner tree.

i could post further and more precise detail on the method if anybody's interested?

also. hello this is my first post, nice to meet you all.

[Paullus Scipio]

There is evidence in ancient source material that aspides were indeed carved from a single piece - at least the Classical shield. The Vatican shield is of close-grained wood carved from one piece,this is an error due to reading the word'solid', and the fact that my source said 'no evidence of some glue joints' which is evidently a typographical error in the light of what follows. In fact the vatican shield appears to be made of two or more parts - see post below, corrected for the 'typo' in my source)
2-2.5 cm thick at max thickness, down to 1.1 cm where the rim turns out and weighing some 6-7 kg.
A word in Aristophanes'Birds' means 'a maker of lyre bowls and shields on the lathe'. ( probably a horizontally mounted lathe.) A slightly loose spindle would also account for the very slight oval shape of the Sphacteria shield.
Later shields seem to be laminated, like the Roman Scutum e.g. the Olynthus shield

[The Wulf]

Is the vatican shield a shield that was used in combat though? if it was purely ceremonial then there is no reason it wouldn't be from one piece, a ceremonial shield would surely not have the same need for conservation of wood as a soldier's shield would.

As for laminated, that's just how i constructed my shield. an aspis made of a single layer of planks would perhaps be an authentic construction method, not laminated, yet nor a single piece which i would have thought more impractical as for one the direction of the grain means the wood is easier to penetrate and split.

Also as for the lathe example; an aspis made of steamed planks of a single layer, would still require some carving, most of all the rim. a lathe would be perfect for this, and perhaps aristophanes refers to a man who makes the lyre and shield bowls, bowl shaped, since a planked shield would be uneven when assembled and needs to be shaved down.

either way, no offense to those who use the plywood shields, but i personally think that the planking method would provide a 'more'* authentic design that is also easier and cheaper to produce for reenactment.

*more as in you may be right about the single piece shields authenticity, but you said yourself laminated shields were not till later, i assume you know what plywood is? :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Yes, the Vatican shield is almost certainly a battle shield (albeit Etruscan)...there is nothing about it to suggest 'ceremonial' - and I have strong doubts that there was such a thing in Graeco-Roman times, with one or two rare exceptions, and it is without a doubt carved from solid wood.
The rim had a complex construction method, re-inforced with a kind of strut.
The laminated aspides that came later c. 4 th century BC were thinner and lighter, and an obvious development in the evolution of the Aspis.

[The Wulf]

Fair enough then.
so single piece aspides were used, and i guess without the knowledge of the steaming technique the solid piece makes perfect sense.

However your reply still refers to the laminated shield which i accepted the inauthenticity of, however you say nothing of shields made from a single layer of planks.

even if some, maybe even most aspides before laminated shields were made from one piece, they would still need huge trees, so it would make more sense for another design of the shield to be from deep planks (i.e. ones that make up the entire depth of the dish but still mean they can be cut/split horizontally from a tree.) hell these wouldn't even be 'planks' so much as squareish section blocks of wood, it would require no steaming since the dish could be carved from the depth of the 'planks' thus lending to the lathe point.
i'm guessing that a single piece of wood would be considered higher quality than that of the 'planked' hence the vatican shield, but perhaps a lower quality version of this method existed if/when availablity of wood was a problem for the shield maker?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

ONE piece aspides?I have never heard or seen something like that.The Vatican shield is constructed of I think five planks of wood,probably poplar, and carved in shape. The word Aristophanes uses is "τορνευτολουρασπιδοπήγος" which favors the plank-lathe construction and coincides with the Vatican shield. If we trust Connolly's paintings,the grain of the wood does not suggest steaming. The rim was a rather complicated construction,both tho make it stronger but also to make it fit better in the bronze facing.
Although this way you don't need huge trees to make a shield, a big amount of wood is waisted.The planks should be 12-14 cm thick.
Poplar is not considered good material, most of all because it usually grows in watery places,which makes it weak. However poplar if cultivated in dry conditions makes strong and light wood. It also is self healing and makes it appropriate for thin shields.
Paul,what evidence is there for laminated shields in the 4th century? The only evidence on shield construction I know of is the Vatican shield and the 7th century Chigi vase,which can be interpreted in a number of ways.
Paul B. posted some interesting info above,but I have not seen anything as to be able to compare.
Khairete
Giannis

[The Wulf]

thanks Giannis, that makes a lot more sense.
Though i think Paullus may not have understood completely what i meant by the term 'planks'
Would you know when abouts single layered steamed aspides may have been developed if they were at all?