What are the "Milites II Flavia" from Worms?

[L C Cinna]

Well, I see your point but actually I don't think we disagree too much.

What I meant was, that the name of the unit sounds typical for one of the many units raised under Chlorus or Constantinus. I do not doubt that the fort at Worms is probably Valentinian. He ordered many new fortifications built along the boarder. Still this doesn't say anything about the unit, it might well be Constantinian and then transferred to the camp. The possibilities I see are:

- They were a Constantinian unit transferred to Worms to guard the fortress

- They were a detachment of one of the Constantinian Flavian legions, which was in the area, ordered to guard the new fort, breought to necessary strenght, while the original legion was refilled individually in the east. So the original legion was split in two of which one remained as the old legion, the other became a limitanei unit still keeping the name of the vexillation it once was.

- They were newly raised to guard the fort.

imho the 3rd option is the most unlikely

[Simplex]

Hi Michael,
...no real disagreement on my part too.
As always, archaelogical facts & findings remain open to interpretation and discussion.
"Dispute" closed till further evidence arises ? :wink:
Greez
Siggi K.

[L C Cinna]

ok lol

[Robert Vermaat]

Siggi,

I have no doubts as to the fortifications.
However, I think your interpretations as to the possible origins of the garrison are a bit restricted.

For instance,

There is nearly no continuity of military units beyond the third quarter of the 3rd century in the western part of the Roman Empire. Like I said earlier, only a few units on the danubian frontier seem to have survived through this time.

That's not correct. Britain also falls into that category, not just the Danube, and 'a few units' seems a bit on an understaement. And who said we need to have this unit or its parent unit in the West for all that time?

Also,

A legion with the name Flavia in it therefore is likely NOT to have been raised/established/culled before the times when Constantius "Chlorus" had the power/opportunity to do so. (That is : by the end of the 3rd Century.)
And so any other unit bearing that "Flavia/Flaviae" could hardly have been established before that, right ?!

Well, why would you want it to be a whole legion? After all, all we need is a vexillation of an older Flavian legion that was used to garrisson this new fortification. It might have been in another part of the empire altogether before it was brought to Worms. remember the famous 'Barcarii Tigrensis' (bargemen of the Tigris) that ended up in Britain?

Look, this is just speculation, just to see that we can range much further without being too restrictive.

[Simplex]

Yes Robert, you whipped me badly ( and rightfully so !)
...keep puttin' yer fingers into the "weaker parts" of my statements.
Statements without a certain substance should be punished alright.
Of course you are right:

That's not correct. Britain also falls into that category, not just the Danube, and 'a few units' seems a bit on an understaement. And who said we need to have this unit or its parent unit in the West for all that time?

I seemed to have fallen back behind my own original statement.
To be more precise: It should have been "Obergermanisch-Raetischer Limes" (Upper German-Raetian Limes") and "Raetischer Teil des Donaulimes" (Retian part of the Danubian Limes) where my statement still holds perfectly true (A.F.A.I.K. !).
And: How could I overlook Britain's merits !? :wink:

Well, why would you want it to be a whole legion? After all, all we need is a vexillation of an older Flavian legion that was used to garrison this new fortification. It might have been in another part of the empire altogether before it was brought to Worms. remember the famous 'Barcarii Tigrensis' (bargemen of the Tigris) that ended up in Britain?

Well, as far as I understand my own words :? , my statement didn't necessarily mean that the "parental" unit under all circumstances was to be a legion.
And BTW: What if M.S.F. was a sibbling of Legio II Flavia Constantia Thebaorum from Cusas, Egypt. (THAT Thebaic Legion ?! :o wink: )
I'd prefer to stay away from "just speculatin'" but as you see, I'm just as easily caught there for myself as other people.
Robert, the right points from you here, but let's put that topic on ice until
"further evidence".
Greez
Siggi K.

Using "Plumbata" means "playing darts" on a grand scale. :wink:

[Simplex]

As threatened:
Further findings.
Thumbing through the Links section of RAT, I ran into Red Rampant Website
http://www.redrampant.com/roma/lateshields.html ,
which in turn led me to Luke Ueda-Sarson elaborate on Late Roman Shield Patterns:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... terns.html
He states that the Milites Flavia Secunda are a unit culled from Legio Secunda Flavia Virtutis making some valid points on that here:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... ensis.html
But I'm still not convinced to 100 %, as there is still a Secunda Flavia Constantiniana attributed to the Magister Militum Praesentalis of the West.
What I understand is that the Secunda Constantinana was assigned to the Comes Africae and a second mentioning of the Secunda Virtutis seems to have been omitted.
Going through statistics on:
http://www.intratext.com/X/LAT0212.htm
(To which I came by the way of Dr. Ingo Maier
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~igmaier/notitia.htm
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~igmaier/webnot01.htm
---also mentioned in the Links section of RAT, which brought me in turn to:
Halstein Sjoelie http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~halsteis/notitia.htm !)
did not bring me further, because there is no easy overview on how often these units in question are mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum.
(Here again we seem to encounter difficulties with parts of the ND not available. The Dux Germania Prima Chapter e,g,).
We see: It was an infantry unit, but is this the justification for attributing the establishment of the Milites Secunda Flavia to the times of Emperor Valentinian I. ?!
Maybe on occasion of the building of the fortress at Worms ?!
I think this still needs harder evidence.
....until further findings....
Greez&Goodnight