What are the "Milites II Flavia" from Worms?

[Jona Lendering]

There is a nice late ancient helmet in the museum of Worms; the explanatory note says that it belonged to an officer of a unit called milites II Flavia. That's not a legion, I suppose, because the two legions known as II Flavia served in the east. But what type of unit is it?

[Tarbicus]

Could it be Ala II Flavia?

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/welc/info.htm

3/4 of the way down the page under 'Germany (D)'

[Roy]

Bah, wrote a long post, and then my pc crashed


I think Milites II Flavia isn't a unit.
If I'm not mistaken, 'milites' means soldiers.

From the Notitia Dignitarum:

XLI. Dux Mogontiacensis.

Sub dispositione viri spectabilis ducis Mogonticensis:
Praefectus militum Pacensium, Saletione.
Praefectus militum Menapiorum, Tabernis.
Praefectus militum Anderetianorum, Vico Iulio.
Praefectus militum vindicum, Nemetis.
Praefectus militum Martensium, Alta Ripa.
Praefectus militum secundae Flaviae, Vangiones.
Praefectus militum armigerorum, Mogontiaco.
Praefectus militum Bingensium, Bingio.
Praefectus militum balistariorum, Bodobrica.
Praefectus militum defensorum, Confluentibus.
Praefectus militum Acincensium, Antonaco.

This means the domain of the Dux Mogontiacensis consists of several prefectures (listed above). One of them is called Secundae Flaviae, with its prefect being located in Vangiones.

Augusta Vangionum is either the Roman name of Worms, or the name of a fort near Worms, not sure.

So, Milites II Flavia probably means 'soldiers from the prefecture Secundae Flaviae'.



[edit] Tarbicus, that's a re-enactment group, not the name of an authentic legion.

[Tarbicus]

Tarbicus, that's a re-enactment group, not the name of an authentic legion.

Heh, heh, heh :lol: Oops.

(added: Junkelmann's name is associated with them somehow, and typing in "milites II flavia" into Google takes you to some JSTOR papers where they're apparently mentioned)

If I'm not mistaken, 'milites' means soldiers.

It can also be another term for 'legio', I'm 99.999% sure of it (will try to find the reference).

[Jona Lendering]

Augusta Vangionum is either the Roman name of Worms, or the name of a fort near Worms, not sure.
So, Milites II Flavia probably means 'soldiers from the prefecture Secundae Flaviae'.

Yep, that must be the solution, alhough Worms was called Borbetomagus, but that's only a detail; I don't even know whether this helmet was found in Worms. Besides, Vangiones can not be far away, as the sequence Tabernae - Nemetum - Alta Ripa - Vangiones - Mogontiacum - Bingium is a list of towns along the Middle Rhine; and the Vangiones are where one would have expected Borbetomagus.

Bah, wrote a long post, and then my pc crashed

But it's still an excellent reply!

[Simplex]

I'm still asking myself if I should really post a reply to that thread.
Being a newbie, that is why. So, one like me shouldn't give "good advice to accomplished elders" -- and Jona Lendering with a really well-made website amongst them, --- right ?!
But this would still let one or two points open to clarification.
(Well, and doing so in a foreign language -- I hope I don't miss the case)
In short:
1. The ALA II Flavia (milliaria) was most likely set up after the Batavian War 69/70 A.D. , probably out of the remains of other Alae that suffered in the course of fighting. This was during the reign of Vespasianus --Titus Flavius Vespasianus (-- hence the byname Flaviae).
It served in several war theatres until it was finally garrisoned along the Limes Germaniae-- first in Heidenheim (from about 89 a.d. on), and then later , after the limes was set up further to the east, in Aalen (from about 150 a.d. or later ). It was one of the most important and distinguished units along the German Limes with one of the largest castra at her disposition.
Together with most of the other units garrisoned along the limes it "went under" somewhere between 242 and 260 (Last inscription that I know of is dated from 222 a.d. !) , -- only some units from south of the Danube survived.
2. The Miles Flaviae Secundae were garrisoned in Worms in the Late Roman Empire.
The Notitia Dignitatum lists legions of similar name assigned to the eastern armies : e.g Secunda Flavia Virtutis und Secunda Flavia Constantiana. (Depends on which source you use)
Chapter XXXIX, a part of the list of the western military organisation, which is supposed to count up the units assigned to the Dux Germaniae Primae, is missing, but the name of Milites Flaviae Secundae is mentioned amongst the units which are assigned to the Dux Mongontiacensis further on up the list.
To complicate matters even further, several chapters list some more Secundani units assigned to diverse commanders/locations as part of armies or frontier militia.
In our case, the N.D. as such seems to be raising more questions than answering it. At least as far as I’m concerned, at that point and without further reading.

But without further reading: There’s NO LINK between Ala II Flavia und Milites Flaviae Secundae.

Footnotes:
Vangiones/Borbetomagus:
During the Late Empire the capitals of the local Civitates were usually named "pars pro toto" (= one for the entity) after these Civitates itself.
(Borbetomagus, capital of Civitas Vangionum thus became Vangiones/Vangionis [or similar] ; Noviomagus [Speyer], capital of the Civitas Nemetum, became Nemetis/Nemetae)
So there is actually no fortress NEAR Borbetomagus called Vangiones (= With the Vangiones) or Augusta Vangionum, it is just the "good ol’ " Borbetomagus itself.
Alta Ripa:
For the late empire, I’d prefer to call Alta Ripa a fortress, not a town. There may have been a settlement
at the site of that (Valentinian) fortress, as the findings seem to indicate, but it can not be taken as certain, that it was preceding the fortress directly.

If you want to know more about Worms: Go ‘n pay’em a visit !!
The custodian of the “Museum im Andreasstiftâ€

[D B Campbell]

Philipp Filtzinger, Limesmuseum Aalen, 4. erw. Auflage, Stuttgart 1991
(Shouldn't there be a 5th Edition out already ?!)

I'm still using the 3rd edn., 1983. :oops:

Thanks for a very informative post, Siggi!

[Roy]

Great post, Simplex

Thanks for the info about the Civitates, haden't heard about that before.


To expand on why Ala II Flavia can't be the same as the Milites II Flavia:
- Ala II Flavia was an auxilliary cavalry unit, stationed in present-day Aalen (Raetia), the Milites II Flavia were stationed in Augusta Vangionum (Germania Superior)
- The Ala II Flavia was likely destroyed in the 3rd century. The Milites II Flavia were first garrisoned in Augusta Vangionum around 350AD.

[Natuspardo]

According to Hoffmann the milites of Worms derived from Legio secunda Flavia Virtutis. Hoffmann thought it together with Legio prima Flavia Pacis and Legio tertia Flavia Virtutis as units created by Constantius I. for the new tractus Armoricanus along the atlantic coast (that means limitanei).
Ralf Scharf rejects that. He proposes the Milites primae Flaviae in Constantia in Armorica as a potential partner: therefore he reconstructs the pair Legio prima Flavia Constantia and Legio secunda Flavia Constantia (and he thinks of this pair as likelier candidates for the prima and secunda legio which Ammianus Marcellinus mentions as beeing sent to Africa in 373).
Besides, brick finds of the Milites Secundae Flaviae begin in 369.

Dietrich Hoffmann: Das spätrömische Bewegungsheer und die Notitia dignitatum, 2 Bde., Rheinland-Verl., Düsseldorf 1969–1970.
Ralf Scharf: Der Dux Mogontiacensis und die Notitia Dignitatum. Berlin/New York: Walter de Gruyter 2005.[/b]

[Roy]

Didn't Legio II Flavia Virtutis & Legio II Flavia Constantia serve exclusively in the eastern part of the empire?


In the Notitia Dignitatum, XLII. Item praepositurae magistri militum praesentalis a parte peditum, I found this:
Tribunus cohortis secundae Flaviae Pacatianae, Paetaonio.

Does anyone know which city/region Paetaonio is?
All the info I can find about it is in Latin, and I don't know enough Latin to understand it.

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks Simplex, and welcome.

Code:

If you want to know more about Worms: Go ‘n pay’em a visit !!

Yes, its absolutely worth a visit. I loved the Nibelungenmuseum too.

[Simplex]

Thanks, folks....
.....but I'm afraid I have to correct myself in one point (1) and furthermore I can't state my case, as far as the actual beginning of the garrisoning of Milites Flaviae Secundae in Worms is concerned, as precisely as I'd wished.(2)
1. The Notitia in fact shows the word Vangionis instead of Vangiones, as I first stated.
(More correct in Terms of Grammar, too ?! :?: )
My eyes seem to have put me in trouble there-- or the pixels on my computer-display. But a more thorough look into "Die Römer zwischen Alpen und Nordmeer", page 211, showed two dots over the word V......... rather than one and "a fly's dirt" on a picture in the Internet.
(Quality prints vs. not-so-quality computer pictures. :wink: )
BTW: I couldn't find any reference to "Augusta Vangionum", where did you find it ? (Ok , ---my eyes ?! shock: )
2. After further reading, I have my doubts concerning the fact, that the Milites S. F. should have been there in 350 or earlier. That year rather was the onset of a very bad time for most of the military units in Gaul because their Commander Magnentius successfully ursurped the throne from Constantines son Constans and went on to fight against Constantine II, brother to Constans. In Ossijek/Mursa most of his military, that did not go over to Constantius II were butchered on September 28th, 351 a.d. .
Together with losses in the following battles Gaul by 352 was likely to be stripped of Roman units nearly completey. It is said that allamanic tribes made ample use of that situation and it took Constantius II quite some time to regain the left side of the rhine valley again. It took Constanttus II's representative Julian and his fellow commanders about 4 years to clear that situation completely. The reorganisation and reinforcement of the rhine boarder, however is attributed to Valentinian. Dr. Grünewald states that "according to the findings, the late roman millitary installations have been built under Valentinian in the 360s and have been maintained until after the middle of the 5th century". ("Die Franken, Wegbereiter Europa's, Mainz 1996 --Worms zwischen Burgunden und Saliern - Dr. Mathilde Grünewald, Worms, pages 160ff.)
Unfortunately I can't find more of her publications that I own and to my regrets I don't have some of her more recent publivcations to further reinforce the case. But I guess, having the Milites Flaviae Secundae at Vangionis before 364 is less likely.
After all, who am I to disagree with Dr. Grünewald there?
Natuspardo, you are obviously using the right sources. :wink:
If I have the opportunity, I'll try to get hold of Dr. Grünewald's newer publications, rumours have it that she found new evidence for dating the
building of the late roman garrison-walls more precisely.
But that's rather a matter of opportunity, time and -- sorry to say ---- $$$$$ . / :wink:
BTW: Roy, you're right. Both Legions were garrisoned in the East.
As far as I found out Paetaonio lay in provincia callecia. (Gallicia)
I bet we have spanish or portuguese members here who know how that place is called nowadays. ( Wasn't there a thread about the Septimani touching that matter ?)
Jona, as my full name is Siegfried -- you bet that I'd supposed to have a special relationsship to that city.
Greets & Goodnight

Siggi K.

[Jona Lendering]

as my full name is Siegfried -- you bet that I'd supposed to have a special relationsship to that city.

:lol:

[Roy]

BTW: I couldn't find any reference to "Augusta Vangionum", where did you find it ? (Ok , ---my eyes ?! / )

From what I can find, it seems Augusta Vangionum originally was a fort near the city, but the name is also used for Worms itself.
Just a few of the sources where I found this:
[url:32525mua]http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/Graesse/orblata.html[/url]
[url:32525mua]http://www.catholic-history.org.uk/latin_names.htm[/url]
[url:32525mua]http://net.lib.byu.edu/~catalog/people/rlm/latin/w/wormatia.htm[/url]

As far as I found out Paetaonio lay in provincia callecia. (Gallicia)

Well, then at least the cohortis secundae Flaviae Pacatianae can't have been in Vangionis

2. After further reading, I have my doubts concerning the fact, that the Milites S. F. should have been there in 350 or earlier. That year rather was the onset of a very bad time for most of the military units in Gaul because their Commander Magnentius successfully ursurped the throne from Constantines son Constans and went on to fight against Constantine II, brother to Constans. In Ossijek/Mursa most of his military, that did not go over to Constantius II were butchered on September 28th, 351 a.d. .

According to:
[url:32525mua]http://www.eichfelder.de/worms/[/url]
the Milites II Flavia were first garrisoned in Vangionis in 350AD, but that's the only info I can find about it, no other sources at all.




This probably clears up the confusion about the word milites:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9 ... nlargePage

Seems to be a lot of interesting stuff on that site. Does anyone here happen to be authorized to see the full article?

[Simplex]

Hi folks, good evening :wink: ,
Jona, -- sorry to say, but it's a picture of me like that you posted that kept me in trouble all of my life. In real life I'm more like fat ugly & old.
Back to the real subject now.
Roy, thanks for sharing your sources.Being heavily addicted to reading I immediately got at them.

Just a few of the sources where I found this:
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/Graesse/orblata.html
http://www.catholic-history.org.uk/latin_names.htm
http://net.lib.byu.edu/~catalog/people/ ... rmatia.htm

They seem to refer to a rather more "mediaeval" use of latin for some parts.
The names for Worms/Borbetomagus beginning with W are surely from late middle ages or the times shortly thereafter.
And so I think I got a clue where Augusta Vangionum may have came from:
The title Augusta was usually attributed to cities ,or better, colonies, that were founded by the Emperors themselves (or close relatives), most of them from Augustus the Great himself. Borbetomagus leads us to the fact that this place may have a name before the romans settled here. No "undue nursing" on the side of Augustus The Great or his successors, so to speak. But after the Romans went, Worms played a vital role in the Frankish Imperium and later the Holy Roman Empire Of German Nation, as the legal entity existing till 1806 was to be called.
So as a place of Imperial Councils/Meetings or gathering place for military expedition so calling it Augusta Vangionum would be apt.
(I'm not a medieval buff so this is a bit of a speculation)
But one thing' s for sure: I have never seen this name in books/essay/ inscripts or so.

From what I can find, it seems Augusta Vangionum originally was a fort near the city, but the name is also used for Worms itself.

There has been quite a number of roman fortifications around Worms through the times, but only the one dead center downtown is the one that is referred to as Borbetomagus or Vangiones/Vangionis. (BTW, that's also about the area where they found that helmet Jona mentioned above.)

According to: http://www.eichfelder.de/worms/
the Milites II Flavia were first garrisoned in Vangionis in 350AD, but that's the only info I can find about it, no other sources at all.

As for Eichfelder -- I know that website quite well. Well, a nice ad that is :wink: , but a scientific essay :?: .
I'm a convinced follower of Dr. Mathilde Grünewald there -- so to speak -- for the reasons I mentioned further up above.

This probably clears up the confusion about the word milites:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9 ... nlargePage

Most interesting.
I'll put that on my "must have read/must have"-list alongside the stuff natuspardo mentioned (I 've had that Hoffman on my list for some time already).

Dietrich Hoffmann: Das spätrömische Bewegungsheer und die Notitia dignitatum, 2 Bde., Rheinland-Verl., Düsseldorf 1969–1970.
Ralf Scharf: Der Dux Mogontiacensis und die Notitia Dignitatum. Berlin/New York: Walter de Gruyter 2005.

And one should not forget that one, too :
Alexander Demandt, Die Spätantike; 2nd, completely revised Ed. München 2007; --- brandnew! :!: :!:
(Soo many books --- soooo little time !)

So far, so good

Greetings & Goodnight

Siggi K.