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Roman wall painting of musculata in color from first century
#46
Jim:

Yes, oil-based paints are a different kettle, etc. Water-based paints probably would not work at all, even if they had some sort of additive such as egg yolk (tempora) or casein (milk protein). Oil-based paint would certainly be an option, provided that you were prepared to wait for the stuff to harden.

Actually, from the recipe you quoted, Mr. Bach was using a siccative - the chromium oxide and ochre pigments. Oils like linseed harden because the molecules join together (polymerise) and this process is speeded up (catalysed) by certain types of metals (chemists sometimes call these 'transition metals'). Chromium, iron and cobalt are good examples of this happening. I've lost track of the number of times I've opened up a tube of chrome green oil paint, only to find a lump of green rubber inside!

Still comes back to the question I asked earlier, if it can be done, why don't we see it done more often - given the propensity of the Romans for painting anything that didn't move! I suspect (only suspect, mind you - it would require more of a literature search than I have time for) that the results the Romans could achieve with their technology and materials would not be anything like as good as Carlton got with his.

Marcus: If it's 4th CBC, it's probably a Montefortino? (Unless it comes under one of those Italian hill tribes, like the Oscans or the Samnites?) The only such helmet that I have seen in the BM of this type is devoid of any paint that I can see (looking at the pictures now). Wouldn't surprise me, however, that there are others 'downstairs' in the archives! Do you have any more info on it?

Paul:

I'd really like to see that fresco! However, a painting is one step removed from the actual item - which is why I'd like to see how it's done. (Remember the arguement on tunic colours and that mosaic from Alexandria?)

Caratacus
(Mike Thomas)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#47
Mike, I seem to remember there are a few painted helmets in Antike Helme. I'll take a browse later.

My question is, how much material was scrubbed by the Victorians, like medieval armour was? Is anything lost in restoration? I still wouldn't be surprised if those Gallic eyebrows sometimes had eyes painted beneath them. We have one definite Gallic with eyes raised from the bowl, and there's the Krefeld Italic D. More helmets have eye decoration of one type or another, and I haven't even mentioned other cultures' yet that were also sometimes painted. But with the Romans I'd never be able to say "they were painted".
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#48
Are there any depicted in frescos, or murals in pompay? Might be a clue if there were any, seems it would be our best hope of finding paintings intact....there is still parts of the towns to be excavated, Smile

Not the same, but I recall the illirian in the Athens Archaological museum was painted black, but could be my wonderfull memory doing its thing again...
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#49
Jim: Oh so true! The Victorians have a lot to answer for! Even something simple like samian pottery has sometimes been so thoroughly 'cleaned' (with a scrubbing brush, it would seem) that there is little detail remaining.

There is also the problem that some of these 'finds' have been 'improved' to make them more saleable to collectors. We have an 'Etruscan' helmet, made of copper alloy with gold additions, in Cardiff that X-ray analysis has shown is made of Etruscan bits, all right - just not from the same helmet!

I can easily see someone painting 'eyes' beneath those eyebrows on the Gallics, just because it looked good there. Did the Romans do it? We'll probably never know for sure.
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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#50
OOps! Sorry, fellows!....thanks Jim! Try again.....

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... c&start=20

..you'll need to scroll down...

And I'll put the commentary here for convenience...

"It is a fresco from the Hellenistic tomb of Lyson and Kallikles, c. 200B.C. - in Roman terms, the end of the War with Hannibal - the bronze helmet at left is clearly painted red and black ( but the comb, rim, cheekpieces and trim have been left bronze), the helmet at right appears to be iron ( cheekpieces and brow, painted yellow with red and black hoops). Two other painted helmets, similar to the left one are shown head-on on another wall with panoplies..."
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#51
Thanks Paul! You specifically refer to this, I take it?:

[Image: fresc.gif]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#52
Thanks, Jim! .....I tried moving/copying the picture without success...could you post how to do this? I'm sure many others would benefit too, since it's much easier to look at pictures this way than have to go off to another thread........

Julius Caesar wrote:-
Quote:Are there any depicted in frescos, or murals in pompay? Might be a clue if there were any, seems it would be our best hope of finding paintings intact....there is still parts of the towns to be excavated,

Fortunately, more than two-thirds of both Pompeii and Herculaneum remain to be excavated. I say fortunately, because there simply aren't the funds available to preserve the present excavations, with the result that the sites are rapidly deteriorating, Herculanium in particular. Whereas thirty years ago,it was fairly pristine, and one could, for example, venture up the stairs to the second floor of the brothel and admire the imaginative paintings ( solves the language barrier - just point to what you want! Confusedhock: Big Grin ), now many of the buildings have crumbled to a dangerous state and can't be entered at all.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#53
That sounds about right....just when I'm planning on going , everything crumbles to dust.....

I can't fathom how the funds can always be found for some follies, but to preserve our heritage, not so easy.... :roll: :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#54
Heritage doesn't vote!

Caratacus
(Mike T)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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